Replacement females???

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Travir, I assume that you check all of your calves for underbite, by lifting their lips and checking whether the lower incisors contact the dental pad? Underbite is difficult to see without doing that.
Underbite is definitely an in-bred defect! I had a friend that ran a trail ride concession for a resort close to where he lived. about 1998, they decided they wqanted to offer a cattle drive experience, so he bought about 10 LH cows and calves, and a bull. I and a couple of other friends, spent a week driving them from the resort to his place ( all through woods and fields...never had to get on a road) til we got them broke to where they'd almost do it themselves Fast forward to 2007, when he and I started this hay business, buying truck loads of 2 3 x3 and 4 x4 bales of alfalfa, and selling it to equine facilities in north and west Ga. Well , his LH pasture had about 40 head in it. The man had never culled...never cut a bull or sold any of them. He'd just bury them in his horse and dog graveyard when they died. There was grand fathers and fathers and sons and grandsons, all breeding mommas and grandmommas and daughters and sisters, etc. The place was full of calves and yearlings, that were dwarfs, and had sever underbites! I think they all had Down's Syndrone or something, too. They acted retarded! Only thing normal LH size on them would be their horns. They reminded me of that Jerry Lewis character that had the severe overbite. Another thing the in-breeding did, was give them all long shaggy forelocks, like a Beatles haircut!
 
This has been a fun read. 😆



Yep. At 16 pages, this has gone the route of the Corriente, Black Hereford, and CAB threads. Maybe the admins can make another forum category: " Retaining and in-breeding of Black Hereford x Corriente heifers to guarantee CAB premium calves!" LOL. That way, the bickering, insults and name-calling, etc could be confined to just that forum. KInda like they did with the politics and religion thing. :p:D:ROFLMAO:
 
Yep. At 16 pages, this has gone the route of the Corriente, Black Hereford, and CAB threads. Maybe the admins can make another forum category: " Retaining and in-breeding of Black Hereford x Corriente heifers to guarantee CAB premium calves!" LOL. That way, the bickering, insults and name-calling, etc could be confined to just that forum. KInda like they did with the politics and religion thing. :p:D:ROFLMAO:
Got to have an available safe space for us all! 🤔 🤪
 
On a serious note, I've had what I'd consider the bovine's version of down syndrome here on 10% or 20% of the father/daughter matings. They have a dink body and a very oddly specific face structure/shape.

That's the reason I decided to try keeping a bull calf in tact. Much less close relations that way if you keep him off his dam.

The Simme bull will get me around having to do that for a few years hopefully... but I will still keep a good bull calf out of him when it's time for him to go.
 
On a serious note, I've had what I'd consider the bovine's version of down syndrome here on 10% or 20% of the father/daughter matings. They have a dink body and a very oddly specific face structure/shape.

That's the reason I decided to try keeping a bull calf in tact. Much less close relations that way if you keep him off his dam.

The Simme bull will get me around having to do that for a few years hopefully... but I will still keep a good bull calf out of him when it's time for him to go.
Explain why sire/daughter is genetically different than dam/son please? Don't both combinations have the same shot of 50/50 genetic influence? Or are you saying the sire/daughter breedings potentially affect more total animals, therefore more chances for strange happenings?
 
Explain why sire/daughter is genetically different than dam/son please? Don't both combinations have the same shot of 50/50 genetic influence? Or are you saying the sire/daughter breedings potentially affect more total animals, therefore more chances for strange happenings?
Dam provides mitochondrial DNA. The male does not.
 
Yall are just grasping for straws.

If I'm irresponsible for saying I will breed a bull to his daughter so is every one who suggests going to auction barns to buy cattle. I guarantee you will bring home more issue from that than what I do.

If you are scared of a genetic defect in one calf let bvd run through your heard or trich or some of that good stuff. It will change your perspective on things real quick.
One is a fear of the known - bringing home diseases. One is the fear of the unknown - will I see a defect? Folks would rather fight the known with meds and whatever else than take an unknown risk. It is the type of risk that you are accustomed to. I'd bet that there are folks doing all of the typing with risky life habits: smoke, drink, overweight, drive fast... but they would fear inbreeding a few cows! It is a mindset.
 
One is a fear of the known - bringing home diseases. One is the fear of the unknown - will I see a defect? Folks would rather fight the known with meds and whatever else than take an unknown risk. It is the type of risk that you are accustomed to. I'd bet that there are folks doing all of the typing with risky life habits: smoke, drink, overweight, drive fast... but they would fear inbreeding a few cows! It is a mindset.
It can be a mindset to take risks... or to deny reality... or any of several other things. If someone becomes invested in ignorance it can be very difficult to get them to consider alternative information without them falling into defense of their biases.

And two opposing points of view can appear attractive to different people regardless of the quality of the information expressed.

I take the point of view that my job is to minimize risk in my own... as well as having a responsibility to minimize risk in the animals I sell for breeding purposes. I don't believe it's responsible to pass on risk to others when to minimize any risk is as easy as using unrelated bulls... as part of thoughtful management.
 
It can be a mindset to take risks... or to deny reality... or any of several other things. If someone becomes invested in ignorance it can be very difficult to get them to consider alternative information without them falling into defense of their biases.

And two opposing points of view can appear attractive to different people regardless of the quality of the information expressed.

I take the point of view that my job is to minimize risk in my own... as well as having a responsibility to minimize risk in the animals I sell for breeding purposes. I don't believe it's responsible to pass on risk to others when to minimize any risk is as easy as using unrelated bulls... as part of thoughtful management.
How much experience do you have with inbreeding? For a year, a decade, several decades? One species or several? Dogs and horses are special when they are inbred and better. Cows are seen as the pits if they are inbred. I've never understood that mindset.

I know that there are things that come up in inbreeding from experience and the bad stuff is not generally defects but regression or depression of particular traits. I have linebred chickens, sheep and cattle and will still do it as I think that I need to. All of the "sky is falling" stuff is just an acorn hitting Chicken Little in the head as he was not a genetics student or inbreeding practitioner either.

Keep on typing.
 
How much experience do you have with inbreeding? For a year, a decade, several decades? One species or several? Dogs and horses are special when they are inbred and better.

You want a pissing contest? Answer your own questions in your following post.

I'm seventy. I've been breeding animals for 60 years, starting with chickens that I was trying to breed for the illusive grey hackle desired to tie fishing flies. I got into showing dogs by the time I was thirteen and made breeding decisions then. I went to a good Ag College and majored in Animal Science, specializing in beef production. I've worked with a major meat chicken foundation stock breeding company and in doing so filled a role as an advisor to the department of the Belgian government that oversees their animal development programs. Belgium has the most advanced and effective breeding programs in the world.

You say inbreeding is safe in animals like dogs and horses? What about sudden onset schizophrenia in golden retrievers? Congenital ichthyosis? Hemangiosarcoma is cancer of the blood vessels. Dalmatians have another list including glaucoma and cataracts, deafness, and skin issues... as well as schizophrenia. Horses have their own issues, liked depressed fertility and a lack of athleticism.

So now answer your own questions. "Keep on typing."
 
Out of curiosity how often do people see proven examples of the genetic defects AM, NH and the rest these days. I want proven examples as weak calves with problems can be also caused by the likes of BVD. I know Travlr is quick to jump on these and point the finger.

Ken
 
Out of curiosity how often do people see proven examples of the genetic defects AM, NH and the rest these days. I want proven examples as weak calves with problems can be also caused by the likes of BVD. I know Travlr is quick to jump on these and point the finger.

Ken

Yes, I realize it's such a pain in the a$$ when someone questions basic ignorance that has evolved into popular opinion. So inconvenient for you. It's just hard... (whimper)
 
Explain why sire/daughter is genetically different than dam/son please? Don't both combinations have the same shot of 50/50 genetic influence? Or are you saying the sire/daughter breedings potentially affect more total animals, therefore more chances for strange happenings?
I would consider sire/daughter to be the same thing as son/dam matings. But there's only 1 dam being bred by her son, whereas the sire has many daughters to hit. 25% shared is better than 50 or 75%, my brain isn't math'n very well yet this morning.

Don't put too much stock in my ramblings. But it is my honest foggy opinion. 😃

I just think sibling mating is a much safer way to go about it. With the dozen to two daughters I've let their sire breed, it was awful looking at the few weird ones. Very possible it was just that particular bull, too.

One close bred heifer was built like a brick **** house, but was culled after calf #2. Her first calf was a dink and never really grew, and second calf didn't make it a week...

My sample size is small, obviously.
 
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