Breeding in a small herd

[laek]

So I'm looking for advice on breeding my small herd. We have only four females to breed this year, a second calf cow and three heifers. Originally we were planning on using AI and a synchronization program. I'm beginning to think that may not be the smartest route. I'm questioning the original plan because I'm watching her close and having trouble getting good standing heat dates on her. Lots of blood dates but they are not very consistent. She's tracking +/- 1-2 days on a 21 day cycle. I'm considering trying to find a neighbour with a good heifer bull and bring them to the bull. We won't be doing the AI service ourselves so we'd have to call it in. For same day service we have to call before 8am the day of. Obvious timing concerns. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Travlr]

So I'm looking for advice on breeding my small herd. We have only four females to breed this year, a second calf cow and three heifers. Originally we were planning on using AI and a synchronization program. I'm beginning to think that may not be the smartest route. I'm questioning the original plan because I'm watching her close and having trouble getting good standing heat dates on her. Lots of blood dates but they are not very consistent. She's tracking +/- 1-2 days on a 21 day cycle. I'm considering trying to find a neighbour with a good heifer bull and bring them to the bull. We won't be doing the AI service ourselves so we'd have to call it in. For same day service we have to call before 8am the day of. Obvious timing concerns. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Synchronizing solves all your problems. You have a specific time window so your AI tech can schedule into their availability, and you can choose exacting what kind of bulls you want, and you can also make sure all four animals get bred to either the same bull or different bulls depending on what you are trying to do. AND... your calving will all be within about a two week window and you will know when that is.

The only upside to a bull is that if the first breeding doesn't take the bull will solve that for you without any effort on your part.

 

[laek]

Synchronizing solves all your problems. You have a specific time window so your AI tech can schedule into their availability, and you can choose exacting what kind of bulls you want, and you can also make sure all four animals get bred to either the same bull or different bulls depending on what you are trying to do. AND... your calving will all be within about a two week window and you will know when that is.

The only upside to a bull is that if the first breeding doesn't take the bull will solve that for you without any effort on your part.

Thanks for the response Travlr. I haven't done any synchronizing before, but it sounds like you have confidence in it! Going forward if one or some do not catch on the first service do they need to synchronized again before the additional service? How many times would you try?

 

[Travlr]

Thanks for the response Travlr. I haven't done any synchronizing before, but it sounds like you have confidence in it! Going forward if one or some do not catch on the first service do they need to synchronized again before the additional service? How many times would you try?

I've had really good luck with AI. But check with your tech and ask them about it. Usually a cow has their natural estrus cycle after being synchronized so watch for heat 18-24 days after breeding. It's pretty simple if you have a chute and a headgate.

If you have a cleanup bull available then he'll do what's necessary.

 

[Mountaintown Creek Ranch]

3 step process

If we want to inseminate at 8am.
Then we work backwards.

1st trip - wed @ 8 pm shot and cidr
7 days later
2nd trip - wed @ 2am. Pull cidr Shot
3rd trip Fri @ 8 am. Shot / insemination

it's pretty easy to do the heat protocol your self if you have a place to work on them. That will only make the vet/tech come once. $$$$ saved

Results may vary

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Not all cows have a 21 day cycle. It is not unusual for a cow to cycle 19-23 days - same cow. Granted "most" cows have a cycle and pretty much stick to it, but that is not dependable. I had a cow stand 22 days ago. She is showing clear discharge tonight, so I expect her to be standing tomorrow - 23 days. Heifers usually run 17-20 days.
Syncronization is a great TOOL, but you can only expect 60-70% conception.
There are other tools you can use. There are good spray paints (bright hot pink, florescent green, etc) that you paint their tail head with. When they get ridden, the paint disappears. Also, there are scratch tags you stick on their hip/butt. When an animal mounts them, they scratch off and display a bright color.
But, those two tools won't be much help with your 1 cow, because the heifers are too small to rub them off.
AI takes TIME - YOUR time. I check my herd minimum 3 times a day - sometimes more. Minimum would be twice a day - am and pm. But, the more you check, the more you will catch them. Are you sure your heifers are even cycling? How much do they weigh?
If you are seeing blood, you obviously are missing their heat (maybe 2 days prior). Are you seeing blood on the heifers also? If so, then they are definitely cycling.
For your first year, you might be better off using a neighbors bull.
Or, as suggested, you can set up a sync program, AI them, THEN turn them in with a bull. That way, you have a chance of having a few AI calves, but calving should be over in about 30 days - if the bull is good.

 

[laek]

I've had really good luck with AI. But check with your tech and ask them about it. Usually a cow has their natural estrus cycle after being synchronized so watch for heat 18-24 days after breeding. It's pretty simple if you have a chute and a headgate.

If you have a cleanup bull available then he'll do what's necessary.

Thanks I'll get in contact with my AI tech and get some details on a program.

 

[laek]

3 step process

If we want to inseminate at 8am.
Then we work backwards.

1st trip - wed @ 8 pm shot and cidr
7 days later
2nd trip - wed @ 2am. Pull cidr Shot
3rd trip Fri @ 8 am. Shot / insemination

it's pretty easy to do the heat protocol your self if you have a place to work on them. That will only make the vet/tech come once. $$$$ saved

Results may vary

That's great information I've never been involved with synchronizing cattle. Thank you! Sounds like the way to go.

 

[laek]

Not all cows have a 21 day cycle. It is not unusual for a cow to cycle 19-23 days - same cow. Granted "most" cows have a cycle and pretty much stick to it, but that is not dependable. I had a cow stand 22 days ago. She is showing clear discharge tonight, so I expect her to be standing tomorrow - 23 days. Heifers usually run 17-20 days.
Syncronization is a great TOOL, but you can only expect 60-70% conception.
There are other tools you can use. There are good spray paints (bright hot pink, florescent green, etc) that you paint their tail head with. When they get ridden, the paint disappears. Also, there are scratch tags you stick on their hip/butt. When an animal mounts them, they scratch off and display a bright color.
But, those two tools won't be much help with your 1 cow, because the heifers are too small to rub them off.
AI takes TIME - YOUR time. I check my herd minimum 3 times a day - sometimes more. Minimum would be twice a day - am and pm. But, the more you check, the more you will catch them. Are you sure your heifers are even cycling? How much do they weigh?
If you are seeing blood, you obviously are missing their heat (maybe 2 days prior). Are you seeing blood on the heifers also? If so, then they are definitely cycling.
For your first year, you might be better off using a neighbors bull.
Or, as suggested, you can set up a sync program, AI them, THEN turn them in with a bull. That way, you have a chance of having a few AI calves, but calving should be over in about 30 days - if the bull is good.

Got some stickers right here I plan to use on my heifers when they come of age/weight. They are may calves that weigh about 600#.

 

[Travlr]

Got some stickers right here I plan to use on my heifers when they come of age/weight. They are may calves that weigh about 600#.

I've never bred heifers that didn't weigh at least 800, and preferably 900 pounds. So a little over a year old. I want them to weigh 1200ish by the time the calve.

It sounds like your heifers won't be ready to breed any time soon. They are pretty light weight if they only weigh 600 pounds and almost a year old.

 

[laek]

I've never bred heifers that didn't weigh at least 800, and preferably 900 pounds. So a little over a year old. I want them to weigh 1200ish by the time the calve.

It sounds like your heifers won't be ready to breed any time soon. They are pretty light weight if they only weigh 600 pounds and almost a year old.

Truthfully I'm not sure what they weigh right now. I bought them February 5 at that time they weighed 580# so I'm sure they weigh closer to 700#. They are in pretty good condition I'd say. I'll try to get a decent picture of them.

 

[laek]

I've never bred heifers that didn't weigh at least 800, and preferably 900 pounds. So a little over a year old. I want them to weigh 1200ish by the time the calve.

It sounds like your heifers won't be ready to breed any time soon. They are pretty light weight if they only weigh 600 pounds and almost a year old.

44 and 45 are May calves and 47 is June. I'm hoping to have them bred for August- September. Should be able to put the weight on them by then

 

[farmerjan]

If you bought them Feb 5 and they weighed 580... this is March 26 ... 7 weeks... say 50 days... and you expected them to gain 120 lbs in 50 days... in Ontario, in the colder north... that is 2 1/2 lbs a day more or less???? At this time of year? Is that possible up there? We don't get that kind of gain here except during the summer on extremely good grass...
Just thought... are the weights up there different than the weights in USA like your money system and your temperature is different????

We do not breed our heifers that young or that small.... I want them to calve at 26-30 months... I want them big enough to be able to drop a calf and get on with it... I want them a little more mature so they are more apt to look at the calf and say.... ding ding ding... that is MY new baby.... not look at it and think what is that.....People say that you need to have a calf on the ground by 24 months or you lose time... I have very few that do not breed back by allowing them to have a little more growth and body when they calve instead of them struggling to grow and milk and cycle to get bred back like when they are younger. And we greatly prefer heifers to calve in the spring so that they have the advantage of the warmer temps, the green grass growing to make milk, and not struggling to keep up her body temp in the cold on top of breeding back also....... I will hold over a heifer and wait for her to breed older, rather than have her calving in the fall because she is 22-24 months... 30 months for the first calf born in the better weather is fine with me...

My personal preferences....

 

[laek]

If you bought them Feb 5 and they weighed 580... this is March 26 ... 7 weeks... say 50 days... and you expected them to gain 120 lbs in 50 days... in Ontario, in the colder north... that is 2 1/2 lbs a day more or less???? At this time of year? Is that possible up there? We don't get that kind of gain here except during the summer on extremely good grass...
Just thought... are the weights up there different than the weights in USA like your money system and your temperature is different????

We do not breed our heifers that young or that small.... I want them to calve at 26-30 months... I want them big enough to be able to drop a calf and get on with it... I want them a little more mature so they are more apt to look at the calf and say.... ding ding ding... that is MY new baby.... not look at it and think what is that.....People say that you need to have a calf on the ground by 24 months or you lose time... I have very few that do not breed back by allowing them to have a little more growth and body when they calve instead of them struggling to grow and milk and cycle to get bred back like when they are younger. And we greatly prefer heifers to calve in the spring so that they have the advantage of the warmer temps, the green grass growing to make milk, and not struggling to keep up her body temp in the cold on top of breeding back also....... I will hold over a heifer and wait for her to breed older, rather than have her calving in the fall because she is 22-24 months... 30 months for the first calf born in the better weather is fine with me...

My personal preferences....

Yes we have much heavier pound than you…Like I said….I don't have a scale…didn't say they weighed 700#….I said closer to 700#… lol you are probably right that 2.5# a day is aggressive for this time of year I'm speculating that they are ABOUT 650#. And yes I've heard a lot of people saying that calving at 24 months is ideal. But I agree that more time can be beneficial. Summer calves is what we are shooting for.

 

[farmerjan]

Making alot more sense now...

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Not that I disagree with anyone holding heifers for an older age, but I don't do that here. If you raise your replacement heifers to grow to their capability (breed/genetics), you easily can breed all your heifers to calve at 24 months of age. After weaning, my heifers are raised thru our harsh winter on baleage and whole shell corn (4-5#/hd/day).
If you have a "calving season", all your calves are born in a specific time frame. If you don't breed them to calve at 24 months of age, then they are calving outside that calving "season". This will only work if you have 2 calving seasons.
As you can see, we all have strong ideas on what is the best program - but remember, it's a program that works for US, in our location, with our resources, and our management.
Here are 2 of my heifers that we are breeding now for a Jan/Feb calving:
free image hosting website

 

[GoWyo]

We weighed replacement heifers yesterday and ultrasound scanned them. The mid-March heifers weighed 722-842 and the two early April heifers were around 650. They have been run on pasture with a ring bale feeder that they can access free choice - we do not feed grain to heifers. They will all be AI bred the last week or May or first week of June for early March calves and then run with the clean up bull the rest of the summer. Some will weigh 750 and some will be 950 at first breeding, but they all need to have a chance to calve in March. The April heifers will be 23 months at calving if they stick to AI. The usually gain very well on summer grass starting around May 1.

 

[RDFF]

If you're going to use a clean-up bull, why not just use the same bull on the first cycle, and avoid all the hassle of synching? That would be my first suggestion. I'm also an advocate for us not messing with the "natural" any more than necessary, and instead, working WITH it... so don't really care for the "synching" concept (but have used it, and am not a radical activist about it). You'll also more likely end up with a higher first cycle conception rate with a bull.

Unless for some reason you're gung-ho to get some AI blood in your herd. If that's the case, then I'd definitely synch 'em in your case, and breed on "time", rather than observed heat. Then watch for the next heat cycle in 19-23 days, and if they come back around, preferably have a bull in with them on that second cycle. See if you can rent a neighbor's bull maybe? He might let you use him just for keeping and feeding him when he doesn't need him to breed his cows.

 

[Travlr]

You'll also more likely end up with a higher first cycle conception rate with a bull.

Not my experience...

And using AI gets you more consistent high quality calves if that's what you are going for, or you can use different higher quality bulls to spread out your genetic diversity.

When I was selling bred replacement heifers I had people ask me to do both. Some were looking to sell steers at weaning and some were working to improve their herds.

As to natural means... that's great, and fine for me and you. But it's nice to have options and ultimately it's up to the person owning the livestock.

 

[farmerjan]

@Jeanne - Simme Valley ... we have 2 calving seasons... Mar-May... and Sept-Nov.... and so I try to not calve heifers in the fall calving season. I get where you are coming from... and your herd is a light years away/ahead from our commercial field of "crayons".... so in order to get them to have spring calves they will get the bulls put in, early June for spring calves and if they are 14-16 months old or 18-20 months old in June.... yes... some are 24 months when they calve... most are 27-30... and you are right... it is what works for each individual person and their situation.
We try to get most calves in a 45 day window... but since we buy some cows at different times, they get worked in where we want them... some will back up a month or 2 and some we hold back.... depending on the cow and her condition at calving. Of the 40 or so cows due this spring in the one group... there are probably 20 calves already on the ground... these cows have come from 4 different places and 4 different bulls.... sometimes they get it done real close together... sometimes they get strung out.