Red Gene outcome

[cypressfarms]

Hi all,

Had posted before about a simiangus cross bull. Besides the heterozygous black bulls, The farm in question (sunshine farms) has simiangus bulls that are black that they have listed them as "red gene" which I assume means that one of the parents of the bull are red, making the red gene a recessive, but carried gene in the new bull. My assumption is that red would likely have a higher chance of showing in their offspring. The only things that I would currently assume about this bull is that:

1. If mated to a black cow, calves would most likely be black.
2. If mated to a red cow, calves would have 50% of being red?
3. If mated to another color, the black or red would dominate, except a charolais, for example, which would only dilute the existing color.

Can anyone shed some more light on this subject for me?
I've long since forgotten the punet square learned in college.

 

[kaneranch]

So can a red angus have a black calf even if bred to a red bull.

 

[txag]

if the bull is black and one of his parents is red, then he is heterozygous (Bb). he is black in color but is a carrier of a red gene. in my answers below, i'll be using a heterozygous bull.

1. If mated to a black cow, calves would most likely be black.

if mated to a homozygous black cow, all the calves will be black
if mated to a heterozygous black cow, there's a 25% chance the calf will be homozygous black, 50% chance it will be heterozygous black, and 25% chance it will be red.

2. If mated to a red cow, calves would have 50% of being red?

correct.

3. If mated to another color, the black or red would dominate, except a charolais, for example, which would only dilute the existing color.

correct. the black or red would still be present but is diluted by the diluter gene to give grey or cream.

So can a red angus have a black calf even if bred to a red bull.

no. two reds will always produce a red.

 

[cypressfarms]

thanks txag,

The reason for the specific questions are because this farm has several heterozygous black simiangus bulls (carrying the red gene Bb), and they appear to be of as good of quality as the normal black bulls (including epd's), but are cheaper due to the red gene.

If bred to (black) angus or (black) brangus cows, this type of bull would almost certainly throw a black calf, which is what we have most of. May be a bargain....

 

[dun]

The red gene doesn;t have to be from a red parent. Two blacks can through red calf if they're both heterozygous. That devilish gene can hide for a long time in a black animal and all of a sudden pop out depending on the color of the animal it is mated with. That's the reason the black Angus folks are still trying to weed the recessive red gene out after all these years.

dun

 

[DOC HARRIS]

The red gene doesn;t have to be from a red parent. Two blacks can through red calf if they're both heterozygous. That devilish gene can hide for a long time in a black animal and all of a sudden pop out depending on the color of the animal it is mated with. That's the reason the black Angus folks are still trying to weed the recessive red gene out after all these years.

dun

That is Correct! The greater NUMBER of cattle in a representative example (10,000,000 as opposed to 100 for instance) the MORE IMPROBABILITY you have of DISPLAYING the red gene. But the PERCENTAGE remains the same: 75% Black - 25% Red.

DOC HARRIS

 

[purecountry]

kaneranch wrote:
So can a red angus have a black calf even if bred to a red bull.


no. two reds will always produce a red.

I disagree. My grandfather raises purebred Red Angus, and last year had a black bull calf from a red cow and bull. They were heterozygous red, since they had black genetics in their ancestry, but it was 2 generations back. He came out black as the ace of spades, p'ed grandad off somethin fierce. He's a die-hard red-man.

 

[Jake]

here's a graphic depiction from the RA association.

 

[cypressfarms]

Jake,

That's it! That's the chart that I was looking for.

Thanks a ton. I was looking through some old reference books, but you saved me the time.

Answered my question about the heterozygous black simiangus. I would think that it would be a "deal" all other things being equal if it was priced lower than it's full black compadres.

 

[cherokeeruby']

no. two reds will always produce a red.

txag, I assume this statement applies to Bos Tarus cattle. I am sure you know that two red brahmans can produce a gray calf.

 

[txag]

no. two reds will always produce a red.

txag, I assume this statement applies to Bos Tarus cattle. I am sure you know that two red brahmans can produce a gray calf.

yes, thanks Ruby. always forget about those silly bramers. all kinds of genetic rules go out the window with them.

I disagree. My grandfather raises purebred Red Angus, and last year had a black bull calf from a red cow and bull. They were heterozygous red, since they had black genetics in their ancestry, but it was 2 generations back. He came out black as the ace of spades, p'ed grandad off somethin fierce. He's a die-hard red-man.

if they were heterozygous, then they would have been black. check out the chart Jake posted from the Red Angus Assoc.......two reds will always produce a red (even if any red parent had a black parent)!!

i'd say your grandad should be p'd at the neighbors black bull. if there was no black neighbor's bull & if the black calf was dna'd to the red parents, then it was due to a genetic mutation of the color gene. not because of a black gene hiding from two generations back.

 

[cypressfarms]

i'd say your grandad should be p'd at the neighbors black bull. if there was no black neighbor's bull & if the black calf was dna'd to the red parents, then it was due to a genetic mutation of the color gene. not because of a black gene hiding from two generations back.

Genetic mutation is not impossible, but I'd bet the bull on the other side of the fence is smiling.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Txag - you are EXACTLY right. You can have a red cow out of Hetero black parents & a red bull out of hetero black parents, and it is genetically IMPOSSIBLE for them to produce a black calf. If they are RED they have NO black gene in them. Period.
Yes, neighbor bull should be smiling - he pulled off a quicky & nobody knew!
Cypressfarm - if you have a herd of homo black cows and you use a hetero black bull, ALL your calves will be black. BUT, if you retain your heifers as replacements, you gotta figure half of them are carrying the red gene & you will never know it until you breed HER to a hetero black bull. Than you WILL start getting red calves.
So you can safely get by with a hetero bull on your cows, but may have to rethink what you will do with your replacements.
That's why Homo black bulls bring more money in the long run. It's to keep a herd "clean" of the red gene. Not that I think black is better. My herd is 1/2 reds & 1/2 blacks and plan on keeping it that way.

 

[cypressfarms]

Jeanne,

I did think about the replacement issue, and it may have an impact on what I do. I never want to be too confined. The way the market is, I may want to keep all heifers as replacements, or I may want to sell all of them. Like to keep all options open

The price difference is not too much, when you consider the long run. I'm sure the red calves will be just as good of quality, and personally I love some color out in the fields, but they just don't pay as much here.

 

[purecountry]

I don't know if grandad ever had that bull dna'ed, but I do know that my bulls at the time were red Gelbviehs, and the only other bulls around for 4 miles were Limo's, more red angus and a bunch of Fleckviehs. I don't know enough about genetic mutations to argue that point, but the calf came out black.

 

[purecountry]

That's the thing - none of the neighbours were using black bulls of any breed at the time. And I really doubt it was sired by a moose. I guess I can't say it was impossible that a black bull came from somewhere, but he woulda had a tough time breeding anything after his 4-5 mile jog. :lol:

 

[purecountry]

Understood. I've always wondered about color genes. I've had cows with a black-brockled face, bred Black Angus or Black Galloway, and had the calf come out with a full bald face. Way more white than the cow. What does that?

 

[dun]

The white face gene is almost as screwy and hardto figure out as the spotting genes are.
A study I read a while back claimed that an animal that is white faced is positive for that marking, but there is also the posibbility of being negative for it or neutral. If it's bred to something that is negative you will get brockle face. But if the animal is neutral you'll get a white face. The reason the first cross with a Hereford is a white face or mostly white faced is because of the dominance of the positive white face. Don;t know if I splained that very well and can;t find the study that addressed it. I didn;t understand the 3 states for the gene but it made sense and has held up when we've cross bred animals that we know their ancestry.

dun

 

[purecountry]

Much 'ppreciated GURU dun. Screwy is the best term to describe it.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I don't know of the positive & negative aspect, but I do know that the Hereford whiteface & the Simmental whiteface are a dominant gene, but they are SEPERATE genes. Hereford gene is different than the Simmental - but both produce white faces. :shock: