Diluter gene
- Thread starter Caustic Burno
- Start date
farmerjan
Well-known member
Nearly all our smokey, char-cross cattle will have a smokey calf even when bred to black angus bulls. And at least 50-60 % of the smokey heifers we retain will also have smokey calves.... and we breed strictly to black bulls. It is a real dominant color.
branxchar&charx
Well-known member
Thats a very nice looking pair
My grandpa once got a red calf out of a BA bull bull and a charx cow
My grandpa once got a red calf out of a BA bull bull and a charx cow
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- Mar 18, 2015
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BA bull was not Homozygous black. Diluter gene + Red gene from BA.
Do you know what else the Charx cow had in her?
branxchar&charx
Well-known member
This was awhile ago not that necessarily matters.
I doubt he remembers or else id ask him. Might have been a black limo bull. No idea on cow. A very light cream color with a black nose.
The diluter gene definitely throws the occasional oddball being in the woodpile.
Told you before about the Brahma x Chianina cows I was getting back in the early 2000's. Big ole , white, calf raising machiones. The first 4 I got, I bred to an Angus. Got big ole solid black calves, that looked like giant ultra-blacks. But, after those, I started breeding all of these calves to a polled Charolais every year, and they always had big white calves that you could literally watch them grow every day. Anyway, a neighbor bought some of these 1/4 Br x 1/4 Chi x 1/2 Char heifers from me every year. He bred these to a registered, homozygous black Brangus bull every time, and they always had smoky calves.. about the same color as Ang x Char calf would. be. So I guess that Char dilute gene is dominant, not recessive.
Yes, the diluter gene is dominant. You may not "see" it in red cattle, but it ALWAYS shows up with black hided cattle.
This past winter I took a Brangus bull down to a farm that after I got there, I remembered as being a registered Charolais breeder in the 80's, The man's son and grandsons, though, were breeding the Char cows to a couple of absolutely magnificent Red Angus bulls. The calves were a lighter red, kinda orange almost, than a red angus, but damn those were awesome calves. He had a bunch of those light red cows... heifers he had retained from these crosses, that he bred to Brangus bulls. These calves were all black, but really, shouldn't half of them have been smoky? At least half of these these cows' eggs would have the Char gene for color, and half would have had the red angus color gene. So, seems like at least half of the calves should have been smoky, doesn't it? I wonder if there is modifying alleles in play, that would suppress the complete dominance of that dilute gene?
If it was a Simmental diluter gene, I would say YES, but Charolais may be different. And, there is always a "chance" the diluter gene didn't get passed on all of them. Not a high probability, but possible!!
andybob
Well-known member
The diluter gene plays an interesting part in breeds which are not homozygous white - the Shrthorn will breed pure white on white or red on red, but produces a roan when white and red are bred together - roan on roan give 50% roan, 25% white and 25% red. Tuli likewise, produce yellow when red and white are bred together, white on white breed to type as do red to red. Some of my Brangus/Tuli were smoky where the white diluter had come through from the yellow bulls.
Lucky_P
Well-known member
Been a while since I read up on the various color dilution gene variants... there are more than one, and not all have been identified/characterized, as yet.
We used to consider Charolais 'white' as being due to a color inhibitor gene... not sure that's still accepted.
Simmental dilution gene seems, in my mind, much more straightforward... it's dominant - if present, it will be expressed, if homozygous, they'll be more 'dilute' than a heterozygote. But, even at that, in our own herd, we saw a wide range of 'dilution', ranging from silver to gray to brown, to dark charcoal(almost, but not quite black). Likely, there are other genetic determinants that influence the degree of dilution.
White Shorthorns are homozygous for the roan gene.
Pretty good, yet fairly simple overview of coat color genetics, with photos, here: http://munster.sasktelwebsite.net/Cattle/PaleColors.html
I've posted this photo before. White cow is 7/8 Angus, calf is 15/16 Angus. Cow goes back 4 generations to a little yellow whitefaced lineback cow we bought hat likely had some Charolais behind her.
We used to consider Charolais 'white' as being due to a color inhibitor gene... not sure that's still accepted.
Simmental dilution gene seems, in my mind, much more straightforward... it's dominant - if present, it will be expressed, if homozygous, they'll be more 'dilute' than a heterozygote. But, even at that, in our own herd, we saw a wide range of 'dilution', ranging from silver to gray to brown, to dark charcoal(almost, but not quite black). Likely, there are other genetic determinants that influence the degree of dilution.
White Shorthorns are homozygous for the roan gene.
Pretty good, yet fairly simple overview of coat color genetics, with photos, here: http://munster.sasktelwebsite.net/Cattle/PaleColors.html
I've posted this photo before. White cow is 7/8 Angus, calf is 15/16 Angus. Cow goes back 4 generations to a little yellow whitefaced lineback cow we bought hat likely had some Charolais behind her.
There was maybe 20 of these RA x Char cows in the pasture. 6-8 were 1st calf heifers with Brangus calves. The rest were his mature cows with their 2nd and subsequent cows, that he needs to a homozygous for polled, homozygous for black Simmental. A heifer calf is born with what...75000 eggs? If one of these Char x RA cows could have 75000 calves, then 37,500 would have the RA color chromozone and 37,500 would have the Char white chromosone. But, it doesn't mean that 1st calf would have the RA genes, the 2nd the Char gene, 3rd the RA gene ,etc. If the first 2 or 3 or 8 or 10, were all RA, that is definitely possible, but like you said, very improbable. Do you, @Jeanne - Simme Valley ..or anyone else on here... know if breeding Char to black Simmental always yields a smoky calf?
kenny thomas
Well-known member
I have some now out of a homo black bull that are from solid white to smokey.to solid black. These are solid white cows but not 100% Charolais.
If the Simmental was Homo Black, to a true Charolaise, I would say yes, they will be smokeys - but may vary in darkness. I know the Char has different genes than what I am used to dealing with, so I wouldn't guarantee anything!!! LOL
