Reaching genetic potential

[DiamondSCattleCo]

No. 1 I have never heard of a baseline being used when talking about EPD's.
#2 On average, An animal with +150 YW EPD should produce an animal 3 lb heavier than an animal with a +147 YW EPD under same conditions.

1) Okey doke. I thought I'd seen something about it.

2) Ok, thats how I thought they worked. But now folks on this thread are posting that EPDs are not necessarily environment independent. So that +150 bull in my example may have had all his calves on hot feed to get that little extra, whereas the +147 bull may have had all his calves running on grass/hay/light oats. So when I drag the +150 bull home, breed him, his calves may not be all that great, whereas the +147 bull, because his calves were weighed and indexed in an environment similar to mine, may actually perform as advertised.

So in other words, the EPDs are no more useful than performance indexing based on offspring, and modifying it for environment, which we've done for hundreds of years.

Color me confused. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Rod

 

[la4angus]

So that +150 bull in my example may have had all his calves on hot feed to get that little extra, whereas the +147 bull may have had all his calves running on grass/hay/light oats. So when I drag the +150 bull home, breed him, his calves may not be all that great, whereas the +147 bull, because his calves were weighed and indexed in an environment similar to mine, may actually perform as advertised.

Creep feeding or not creep feeding is taken into consideration when working the official numbers.

 

[cypressfarms]

cypressfarms - your probing and investigative questions seeking the absolute and ultimate in perfection in beef cattle breeding has been the intent and objective since the days of Cain and Abel. Those expedient goals have been imminent but never wholly achieved.
DOC HARRIS

Doc, As always you provide great opinions to the board; it's obvious that you are well versed and educated in this field.

I do take exception with one of the statements above about Cane and Abel. We are now at a time where everything from embryo transfers to sexing semen for a.i. is possible. Cane and Abel did not have this option. My point was to start a discussion, and gladly it appears to have sparked some debate, as to whether our scientific advancements (genetic potential) have outpaced what the normal cow calf producer can handle with regular grass.

Thanks to all for the input; looking forward to seeing more!

 

[Brandonm2]

Cypress MOST of the data on a proven bull is "on grass" more or less. Nobody has published any hot creep ONLY EPD numbers. I grant you that environment can limit EPD expression; BUT those differences come from somewhere and are repeatable and NOT just in a farm that pushes their cattle exceptionally hard.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

cypressfarms - your probing and investigative questions seeking the absolute and ultimate in perfection in beef cattle breeding has been the intent and objective since the days of Cain and Abel. Those expedient goals have been imminent but never wholly achieved.
DOC HARRIS

Doc, As always you provide great opinions to the board; it's obvious that you are well versed and educated in this field.

I do take exception with one of the statements above about Cane and Abel. We are now at a time where everything from embryo transfers to sexing semen for a.i. is possible. Cane and Abel did not have this option. My point was to start a discussion, and gladly it appears to have sparked some debate, as to whether our scientific advancements (genetic potential) have outpaced what the normal cow calf producer can handle with regular grass.

Thanks to all for the input; looking forward to seeing more!

Cypress - Thank you for your thoughts. I do appreciate them very much.

Your point regarding "whether our scientific advancements (genetic potential) have out-paced what the 'normal' cow/calf producer can handle with regular grass" is very cogent! The two terms "Normal" and "Regular Grass" are the operative words in this discussion. You mentioned that Cain and Abel did not have the options that we have today. Very true! - - -and of course, Cain and Abel had ONE option - and Cain blew his opportunity - BIG TIME!

Thank God (literally) we now have several options for the advancement of His Blessings to us through Embryo Transfers, sexing semen for AI, and intelligent feeding practices through improved fertilization methods, advanced forage species, and nutritional supplementation.

I sincerely HOPE these scientific advancements have outpaced what is considered average or typical in today's Beef Husbandry! If we now, or in the future, become complacement or self-satisfied with our production performances, I am fearful that we will lose the opportunity for the enduring and perpetual seeking of the excelling of our seedstock - which would be the first step to mediocrity and losing some of what we have accomplished to date! I feel it is critical for Science to stay at least one step ahead of the Beef and Forage Producers in order to movitate us and to encourage our continually seeking improvement. Dangling the Carrot in front of our noses - so to speak!

I frequently stress Learning and Knowledge on these Boards. I feel that it is imperative for improvement in one's life and BUSINESS. As Proverbs 14: 6 states, "- - knowledge comes easily to the discerning."

DOC HARRIS

 

[Frankie]

Ollie' said:

Merry Christmas to you as well Frankiestien. You are wrong btw. If the two bulls have data collected in two different environments their data is incomplete. This is what Cypress is saying.

Is that what Cypress is saying? I missed that. But your two bull example is not relevant. If they are not in the same environment, they are not contemporaries. Contemporary groupings are the backbone of EPDs. If they are single bulls, their data is not included in the database that makes up EPDs, at least Angus EPDs.

If 878 calves are higher than travler 004 by 50 lbs on average and thousands of calves data have been collected but 60% of the data is off lush environments but you were going to use the bulls in the south then 004 might actually be better in a low input program efficiency isn't considered in the ww equasion.

Contemporary groupings.

On the other hand the cows were strip grazing alfalfa and the calve were creep fed possibly the 878 calves would weigh 80 lbs more at weaning. The ww epd is an expected progeny difference...not an actual difference every time.

EPDs never, ever tell you what something will weigh. For the rest of this: Contemporary groupings.

P.S Frankie have you got my present bought?

I did, Ollie', but we had an extra person show up last night, so I gave it to him. I knew you wouldn't mind.

 

[Frankie]

2) Ok, thats how I thought they worked. But now folks on this thread are posting that EPDs are not necessarily environment independent. So that +150 bull in my example may have had all his calves on hot feed to get that little extra, whereas the +147 bull may have had all his calves running on grass/hay/light oats. So when I drag the +150 bull home, breed him, his calves may not be all that great, whereas the +147 bull, because his calves were weighed and indexed in an environment similar to mine, may actually perform as advertised.

EPDs can't take into consideration some environments, fescue, high altitude. But for most of us, they do take environmental factors out of the equation. The EPD database is based on contemporary groups, not individual performance, so the fact that the calves running on hot feed weigh more doesn't matter. What matters is which bull performs best within his contemporary group, whether on hot feed or grass.

So in other words, the EPDs are no more useful than performance indexing based on offspring, and modifying it for environment, which we've done for hundreds of years.

No, EPDs are more valuable because they take generations of performance information into account. For example, the EXT bull's milk EPD is based on over 12,000 daughters performance. You can't get that by simply indexing. He's been bred to probably every major Angus bloodline in the US, so we're able to use him as a baseline for other sires.

Color me confused. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Did I help uncolor you?

 

[Caustic Burno]

Plum scary that breeders would have 12.000 cows from one bull sounds like the train the dairy industry was on, which has now left the tracks.

 

[cypressfarms]

Ollie' said:

Merry Christmas to you as well Frankiestien. You are wrong btw. If the two bulls have data collected in two different environments their data is incomplete. This is what Cypress is saying.

Is that what Cypress is saying?

No, I didn't mean that. My questions were more along the lines of seedstock producers continually improving the genetic potential of cows/bulls, but the potential may not be realized by commercial cattlemen not able to provide enough forage.

However, different environments is one aspect which may limit forage ability of a cattleman.

Amen to Caustic! I don't want to see the beef industry go the same road as dairy. Is is good to keep many viable breeds to promote the health/vitality of all cattle. If there were only one breed (let's pick on angus), then genetic variation would suffer. One bull with 10,000 offspring does cause me concern.

Cheetahs in Africa suffer from this. Their genetic makeup is so similar that it's questionable if they can have longterm survival.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

What matters is which bull performs best within his contemporary group, whether on hot feed or grass.

Pardon if I seem to be a little slow on the uptake, but I'm not the brightest light bulb in the package.

Ok, so when you are looking at two Angus bull's EPDs in the breed book, how exactly do you tell if they are in the same contemporary grouping so its fair to make a comparison?

Rod

 

[Lost Hope Ranch]

]

Pardon if I seem to be a little slow on the uptake, but I'm not the brightest light bulb in the package.
Rod

After reading several of your post's I have come to that conclusion. Probaly others have also.

 

[Frankie]

What matters is which bull performs best within his contemporary group, whether on hot feed or grass.

Pardon if I seem to be a little slow on the uptake, but I'm not the brightest light bulb in the package.

Ok, so when you are looking at two Angus bull's EPDs in the breed book, how exactly do you tell if they are in the same contemporary grouping so its fair to make a comparison?

Rod

Don't worry about it. We can explain it to you here or pm me if you'd rather. Some of the breed association sites also have information on contemporary groups.

Those bulls don't have to be in the same contemporary group, but an individual animal's performance data must be reported within a contemporary group of at least two. The computer program analyzes data reported from hundreds of producers on thousands of contemporary groups, evaluates the data on relatives already in the data base and spits out EPDs.

 

[buckaroo_bif]

]

Pardon if I seem to be a little slow on the uptake, but I'm not the brightest light bulb in the package.
Rod

After reading several of your post's I have come to that conclusion. Probaly others have also.

And It is Still quite obvious why you have lost hope mister...

 

[Lost Hope Ranch]

]

Pardon if I seem to be a little slow on the uptake, but I'm not the brightest light bulb in the package.
Rod

After reading several of your post's I have come to that conclusion. Probaly others have also.

And It is Still quite obvious why you have lost hope mister...

Don't worry about me. Just you worry about your cur pup.

 

[Frankie]

Rod, from the Red Angus Assn:

"How can we compare EPDs on animals in different herds if their calves have been raised in very different environments?

BLUP Procedures account for environmental differences through information on the genetic relationships between animals in different herds. This is similar to having "reference sires" in each herd. The more closely related the animals in two herds are, the better job BLUP procedures can do in adjusting for the differences in environment between those herds."

There's lots of good info there that might answer some of your questions better than those of us on this board. Here's the link:

http://www.redangus1.org/epdqanda.htm

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

After reading several of your post's I have come to that conclusion. Probaly others have also.

I'd like to thank you for that very useful post. Just another 10ms of my life wasted....

Was really hoping there weren't any forum trolls here, but I guess I couldn't get that lucky.

When you got something worthwhile to say, then talk to me. Otherwise, sit down and shut up.

Rod

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

"How can we compare EPDs on animals in different herds if their calves have been raised in very different environments?

BLUP Procedures account for environmental differences through information on the genetic relationships between animals in different herds. This is similar to having "reference sires" in each herd. The more closely related the animals in two herds are, the better job BLUP procedures can do in adjusting for the differences in environment between those herds."

Thanks Frankie... I'd read that website before, but it didn't click until now. To recap and ensure that I'm understanding properly: If there is a large enough sampling of closely related animals from a variety of herds, and since each herd is likely to have some unique environmental circumstances, we should be able to get an idea of performance, compared to another animal of the same breed, regardless of environment.

Rod

 

[Frankie]

"How can we compare EPDs on animals in different herds if their calves have been raised in very different environments?

BLUP Procedures account for environmental differences through information on the genetic relationships between animals in different herds. This is similar to having "reference sires" in each herd. The more closely related the animals in two herds are, the better job BLUP procedures can do in adjusting for the differences in environment between those herds."

Thanks Frankie... I'd read that website before, but it didn't click until now. To recap and ensure that I'm understanding properly: If there is a large enough sampling of closely related animals from a variety of herds, and since each herd is likely to have some unique environmental circumstances, we should be able to get an idea of performance, compared to another animal of the same breed, regardless of environment.

Rod

Yes, EPDs should filter out environmental effect. Though, as I said, there are some factors that can't be figued in, like high altitude and fescue.

 

[tapeworm]

Frankie: " We want big bulls to sell, but that also translates into bigger heifers and the milk EPD in the Angus breed has gotten too high, IMO. It's a balancing act."

Thank you for saying that frankie. All this chasing bigger and bigger numbers is increasing the size of our cowherd Im afraid..at some point we ahve to stop

The bottome line is that it just dont matter how big the expected numbers are if we cant afford to feed the cows or if we cantget calves on the ground..theres ALWAYS sacrifices made in other areas by focusing to much on some traits. Chasing bigger and bigger numbers is not alwasy the answer...we have to be sure that we never lose site of the efficent fertile cow
WE HAVE TO BE SURE THAT WE NEVER LOSE SITE OF THE EFFICENT FERTILE COW!!

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Rod, from the Red Angus Assn:

"How can we compare EPDs on animals in different herds if their calves have been raised in very different environments?

BLUP Procedures account for environmental differences through information on the genetic relationships between animals in different herds. This is similar to having "reference sires" in each herd. The more closely related the animals in two herds are, the better job BLUP procedures can do in adjusting for the differences in environment between those herds."

There's lots of good info there that might answer some of your questions better than those of us on this board. Here's the link:

http://www.redangus1.org/epdqanda.htm

Frankie- This 'Red Angus' site is another of the terrific explanations of EPD's and their uses. Each Breed has some particularly slight differences in use and detail, but they are basically encompassing the same details and functions. Thanks for posting this site. Everyone should copy this and glue it to the front of their brain! These are words to live by!

DOC HARRIS