Questions about "family cow" stuff

[Allannaa]

Good morning, everyone!

First let me say, I was very glad to find this site, and very pleased with the amount of information I was able to find simply using the search and looking through various posts. This place is cool!

I have some rather newbish questions, though. I haven't really found answers, though I've found possibilities. I can't remember after all these years, how we managed what my dad called "family farming" and since he's driving the Big Tractor In The Sky now, I can't ask him. I have talked to my uncle a little, and to farmers in my area, but the trouble with that is, the cattle farmers here are either big-yield beefers or incredibly-huge-yield milkers.

And I don't want any part of that. I'm old and lazy. Nor do I want to spend thousands on equipment, because I'm not only old and lazy, I'm also stingy.

So here's the rundown, and the associated questions.

1) I live in Southwestern Missouri, between Kansas City and Springfield, in the Truman Lake area. I own 20 acres of what we used to call "scrub" pasture, which consists of native prarie grass, some clover, some "straw wheat" (whatever that is, that's what the neighboring farmer called it), and a lot of sumac that I'm going to have to do something about this year. I also have access to a separate 5 acres of slightly better scrub pasture, as well as 5 acres of really scrubby mixed "Missouri Timber", which means some oak, some hickory, a lot of cedar, and a lot more honeysuckle.

Is it true that, unless the snow is over my own ankles, I can indeed run 1 small cow and her calf on 5 acres, year round, provided I have divided it into 2 portions to rotate her, and provided I rake/drag or otherwise break up the pats (like, put the chickens in a portable coop and let 'em have fun) and that in winters when the snow IS over my ankles, I need to feed approximately 1 small square bale, in a feeder, about daily, in addition to the graze?

And is it further at least a possibility that, once the sumac is eliminated, I can probably get up to 30-40 bales out of my scrubby 20 acre pasture (provided I can borrow a tractor, rake, and baler. Oh, crikey, maybe I should just buy 30 or 40 bales....)

I absolutely do not want to corn-feed or do anything else except rattle sweet-feed in a tin pan to lure the cow into the milking station (stanchion, or possibly even rope-tie her halter, as a friend of mine does with goats). I want the cow to be a cow -- a grazer, a ruminant. (That part isn't because I'm lazy, it's because I think corn-feeding is weird.)

2) I do not want 40 gallons of milk a day. For crying out loud, there's only two of us and the dogs. What am I going to do with all that, ya know? I want about 2 quarts/litres a day MAX. I also only want to milk once daily, and I assuredly do not want to use freshening hormones (are they still called that? What you mix in with the feed to make a cow lactate even when she isn't breeding at the time). I know most people would say 2 quarts a day is a laughably small amount -- but it won't have anything strange added to it, the cow won't have been given hormones of any kind, ever, and it won't be pastuerized, so I can make real yoghurt, real clotted cream, and real cheese.

I've been told that a Dexter, while slightly more expensive to purchase even in fall/winter auction, is more in line with my milk needs. To be honest, this is a breed I'd never heard of until a year ago. When I was growing up, the house-cow was a red cow. Nothing special. Nothing fancy. Provided plenty of milk for a family of 5 kids, parents, and grampa.... Which is about 4 times the amount of milk I need now, so -- would a Dexter heifer, in fact, be what I need?

I seem to remember that we shut the red cow away from her calf at night, milked before school, let the calf in with mama, and did not milk at night. Will this work? Or, more ideally, since I can remember being kept up all night by a squalling, irritated calf, will it work to NOT separate mama and calf -- and her milk will adjust to the calf, and my once-a-day requirement of about 2 quarts? Probably the calf will be butchered a couple of months before it's time to breed the cow again; I don't want or need a high meat weight from it, and don't plan to sell it at auction, either. Most likely it will be butchered by a mobile slaughter company, if I can find one in this area, or trucked about 40 miles to a local farm that will, for a fee, slaughter calves. Neither the milk (or butter or cheese or yoghurt) nor the meat from the calf will EVER be sold. Everything will be for the family only.

3) I also raise bantam chickens (yes, yes, I know, bantams aren't technically chickens), which were originally for meat and eggs, but, embarrassing as this is for a former farm girl to admit... well... I'd sooner eat rocks than my pretty boys and their ladies. While foxes and coyotes (and we think, a tiny wolf family consisting of 2 males and a young female) haven't hassled the chickies, we do have a redtail hawk issue, which means the coop and run are over-roofed with standard chicken netting.

I know there are old wives' tales about eagles carrying off calves and lambs. But we only have the redtail hawks, and very few eagles, so I'm not truly concerned with that, nor with foxes. What does give me pause, though, is coyotes. I've been told that they can run a heifer to illness, and run a calf to death, then, of course, kill it and eat only the "good bits". Will the dogs (one's an 80-pound goodness knows what, one's an Aussie Shepherd, and one's ... well, let's be kind and say he's a mutt) help keep the coyotes away from the cow and her calf?

I'm aware that some of this is very specific, and some of it is very vague. But I just can't seem to find out everything I want to know either here on the site (I've been an unregistered lurker for a while), or from Google, or from asking the locals. As I said above, everyone around here is going for ridiculous amounts of milk or auction weight, so the answers I get even from the farmer whose land adjoins my big 20 acre plot, really aren't helpful. I definitely don't want to find out the hard way that this won't work at all -- or find out the expensive way (you know, investing in a used tractor, soundproofing a barn, planting specific seed in the 20 acres, moving the cow and calf every. single. day. over the 5 acres AND leading her a quarter mile to the 20 acres) that it would have worked -- if someone can venture some advice first.

Thanks so much!

 

[Nesikep]

Welcome..

I'll try and be of some use... While most of us here are 'commercial' producers, not all of us are 'big time'.. I have 25 pet cows, they're crossbred beef cows, All sorts of breeds in the woodpile.. Started off with Hereford, bred them to Salers, then Shorthorns, then Gelbvieh, and now Limousins.
I have a couple cows I can hand milk.. "Mega" is from a long line of pets that were all milkable, she's just an ordinary beef cow, and gives plenty of milk.

For the feed requirements.. I really can't say much about your pasture, I don't know how it produces, but if you feed hay, I found (depending on the quality of hay, if the cow is milking, late gestation, etc) 30-40 lbs of hay a day for a moderate size cow.. if she's milking a little more, if she's dry a little less... I feed them as much as they'll clean up properly.
For the size of a place you have and your goals, I'd recommend just buying hay, you won't need the equipment, and you won't get a sore neck from looking to see if it'll rain.. A tractor with a loader is *always* handy though.

For the breed of cow.. there's a lot of Dexters that are very temperamental cows, and what I always tell people with your goals, is "Don't get a small cow because they're easier to handle, get a cow that's easy to handle, whatever her size"... "Mega" is on the larger side of medium, is completely docile and leads with 1 finger.. if you have a bucket with goodies, the race is on! I only milk her for about a month after calving (when the calf can't keep up with her milk production) and after I wean the calf for about a month.. She behaves perfectly.. A flake of hay on the ground for her to keep busy, I plop the bucket under her and milk, don't need a stanchion or anything else. At the end of the season when she naturally produces less milk I get a gallon a milking, milking once a day.. She doesn't get any grain either as much as she loves it.
Separating the calf overnight (just 8 hours or so) is probably the easiest... I'd think if they are still close it should keep bawling to a minimum, they ought to get used to the routine after a while. Depending on how much milk she produces, and how long it's been since the calf has nursed, you can be milking from one side while the calf nurses from the other.

As for when to butcher the calf, I'd recommend growing it out a bit more, even if you don't need the extra meat, they will be more flavorful if they get to 16-20 months of age and be much heavier...

A second argument for a larger, more conventional breed of cow is that you won't have as hard a time finding a bull for her, as she'll be big enough you won't be limited to the 'small' breeds for bulls, which means your neighbor's bull will probably do just fine (be warned, he might even volunteer). Also, be careful when choosing a cow to make sure she has teats that lend themselves to hand milking... I have big mitts and it's of particular importance to me, and of course she should have been milked before.. it is possible to teach an old cow new tricks, but she has to be comfortable with people fiddling around 'back there' or the deal is off.

Predators.. well.. every place is different.. we have coyotes here too, and they have made off with a chicken on occasion, but we've never had an ounce of problem with them bothering the cattle.. The cows pretty much ignore them, as well as black bears, but will raise a big stink if they spot a cougar or grizzly bear.. they seem to know the difference. We also have a pair of resident ravens, I think the cows bother them more than vice versa, when the calves are young, the ravens want to pick up afterbirth, and the calves just love chasing them.. I've had golden and bald eagles around.. last year at calving time there was a big one circling, and just to give him the message I gave him a warning shot.. they've never caused any problem either, but I'm not about to let them start.. Calves are most susceptible to predators in their first week, and Momma will probably raise a serious fuss too.. just keep them close to the house for a while.

There's a Facebook group called Cow Talk that might be a little more geared toward what you're into doing

Cheers

 

[Nesikep]

And don't worry about 'too much milk'.. the calf will take care of anything you leave behind!

Here's a couple videos.
Mega grazing through some snow.. taller grass will mean they can graze in deeper snow obviously
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnO4Sr_VII8

Mega with her first calf.. about a week old or so? Got milk?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhc4UacsIGo

And from this one you can tell I do a lot of training in the docility department.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyp4K9TxZnM

 

[branguscowgirl]

Nesi you did an excellent job explaining and answering her questions. Should all be very helpful.

 

[bball]

Nesi you did an excellent job explaining and answering her questions. Should all be very helpful.

Yes he did. I'm still impressed with the videos....and a touch in disbelief. They literally didn't flinch a muscle when he grabbed their teats.

 

[Rafter S]

You mentioned only wanting to milk once a day, and not needing lot of milk. I'd recommend getting one of the traditional dairy breeds so there will be enough milk for you and the calf. Of course there are traditional beef breeds that will have excessive milk, but they're going to be more difficult to locate.

And you said you don't want to listen to a calf all night. That's pretty easy to solve. Milk the cow in the afternoon or evening and then put the calf with her. Leave them together overnight and separate them the next morning. Repeat.

 

[BC]

And you said you don't want to listen to a calf all night. That's pretty easy to solve. Milk the cow in the afternoon or evening and then put the calf with her. Leave them together overnight and separate them the next morning. Repeat.

Just as the drill sergeant said to Forest Gump - Rafter S you are a __ __ genius.

 

[Allannaa]

Wow, thanks so much for all the good, practical, and FAST advice! And thanks for the vids; I loved watching them (once they buffered and loaded.) Mega seems a lot like the red cow from my kid-hood -- tame as a dog and twice as sweet-tempered. She also looks like the red cow from my childhood, except the red cow wasn't polled, and one of her horns was kind of turned outward, like a cartoon cow. The vid of the nursing calf reminds me of one of our barn cats. He would go up to the red cow (usually getting in the way of whoever was milking) and head-butt her bag, then lap at the stream she released when he did that.

Rafter S said,

And you said you don't want to listen to a calf all night. That's pretty easy to solve. Milk the cow in the afternoon or evening and then put the calf with her. Leave them together overnight and separate them the next morning. Repeat.

So obvious! I should have thought of it myself! I'm so accustomed to scheduling errands, shopping, VA appointments (our VA is awesome about getting you in when you want / need to come in, and they understand that some people may have weather-dependant schedules, and so on) and everything else for late in the day. It never occurred to me, I could, you know, reverse that and do my Alla-stuff early so I can do my Cow-stuff later instead of at oh-dark-thirty. An obvious thing, but it took someone else to point it out. Thank you!

Nesikep said,

A second argument for a larger, more conventional breed of cow is that you won't have as hard a time finding a bull for her, as she'll be big enough you won't be limited to the 'small' breeds for bulls, which means your neighbor's bull will probably do just fine (be warned, he might even volunteer). Also, be careful when choosing a cow to make sure she has teats that lend themselves to hand milking... I have big mitts and it's of particular importance to me, and of course she should have been milked before.. it is possible to teach an old cow new tricks, but she has to be comfortable with people fiddling around 'back there' or the deal is off.

I wasn't worried about teat size; I have fairly average hands. I wasn't worried about temperment; I figure with enough sweets, any animal can be conned... er tamed. I've never had an animal -- from the quarter horses my uncle bred, to the red cow and the meat-herd to the neighbors' sheep, including a ram even he hated to deal with, from dogs to cats, from hamsters to sugar-gliders, that I couldn't handle any way I chose, even when the animal was ill or injured. (I'm lucky that way -- I think making animals love me is my ONLY real talent.)

But I never even thought about bull size relative to heifer size for breeding! If you hadn't mentioned that, I would have tumbled into one of those "Ah, dangit" type of pitfalls I mentioned as wanting to avoid. (Or had to go the AI route... oh, good grief noooo.)

As far as the calf taking care of whatever we don't need, I thought I remembered that was the case with the red cow, but I also remembered farmers near us taking the calves and bottle-feeding from the gazillions of gallons produced by their commercial milkers -- and bottle-feeding is also something I don't ever want to get into, for various reasons. But what you folks seem to be telling me is that I don't need to worry about that -- I can just let Ma Nature and the cow herself handle feeding the calf.

Nesikep also said

As for when to butcher the calf, I'd recommend growing it out a bit more, even if you don't need the extra meat, they will be more flavorful if they get to 16-20 months of age and be much heavier...

That's also something I didn't even realize. I know when I was a kid, we butchered a calf every year, but now that I think back, it may have been that we butchered the red cow's calf every other year, and a random cull-calf during the alternates. I didn't even think about taste quality. The only thing that was in my mind was KC strip is $9 a pound, and even I get tired of venison (let alone sitting on my behind every morning for 2 weeks in November in weather that ranges from "Why am I doing this??" to "I shoulda worn my swimsuit"). Don't get me wrong -- the KC strip available at our local grocery store is WORTH the price; local Missouri beef is tasty stuff. But it adds up for a pair of carnivorous old ladies, you know? So I'm very glad Nesikep mentioned that the meat would be better if I wait longer to butcher.

That does lead to another question though -- Am I right in thinking I can have a calf on the teat -- still milk daily, if I "rest" the cow without milking through November/December -- breed her in January -- and still milk her even when she's in-calf so long as she's not also nursing the prior breeding's calf? (And breed her every 2 years instead of yearly, referencing Nesikep's comment about flavor of meat.)

I have wondered a bit about buying hay, and the costs associated with it. In this part of Mizzourah, things can range from pricey to really pricey. For instance, even in non-drought years (and we had a big nasty drought a few years back) the straw I use for the bantams' house is $7 a bale -- for STRAW, not "eating hay"! So I shudder to think what it might cost if I have to feed hay even for as little as a month. We'd go from "break even, gain a little" by not buying commercially processed milk products to "Alla, you are crazier than a june-bug and spending more money than a kid in a vid game store", it seems to me.

I'll definitely check the FB group that was mentioned, and I'll check again with the Extension Center guys. Maybe if I can get one to actually come out here and LOOK at my stuff, I'll get answers that will apply to me, and not to a commercial venture. But I'll be honest -- I got more advice, clearer and easier to understand advice, from you folks in two days, than I have from anyone else in the last five years!

So thank you all again!

 

[suzorse]

more important than breed is temperament in a family cow , beef/dairy crosses are hardy cows
when you go to buy a cow ,temperament is # 1 and she needs to already being milked or have been milked in the past , also see if you can have it tested for BLV,BVD , johnnes and is Bangs vaccinated
also get 1 that is used to your way of management , grass fed with out large amounts of grain to keep condition
here are some answers to some questions
http://familycow.proboards.com/board/38/new-cow
and welcome ,and good luck on getting a milk cow
Suzanne

 

[Nesikep]

I wasn't worried about teat size; I have fairly average hands. I wasn't worried about temperment; I figure with enough sweets, any animal can be conned... er tamed. I've never had an animal -- from the quarter horses my uncle bred, to the red cow and the meat-herd to the neighbors' sheep, including a ram even he hated to deal with, from dogs to cats, from hamsters to sugar-gliders, that I couldn't handle any way I chose, even when the animal was ill or injured. (I'm lucky that way -- I think making animals love me is my ONLY real talent.)

I'm really good at working with animals too.. but there's some that are just high-strung and headstrong, and you just can't change that, seems hereditary too.
Mega is a very peculiar cow.. I can ride her, milk her and lead her with no problem, she comes running to me, but she loathes other people.. no one else can get within 30 ft of her unless they have bribes, and once the bribes run out, she goes back to being antisocial.

That does lead to another question though -- Am I right in thinking I can have a calf on the teat -- still milk daily, if I "rest" the cow without milking through November/December -- breed her in January -- and still milk her even when she's in-calf so long as she's not also nursing the prior breeding's calf? (And breed her every 2 years instead of yearly, referencing Nesikep's comment about flavor of meat.)

The shorter a rest period the cow has, the more she's going to need to eat during that time to gain condition, They don't need to be fat pigs, but they shouldn't be showing too many ribs either (Google body condition score (BCS), aim for a BCS of about 5-6 at calving).. My beef cows have about a 6 month holiday, which is longer than they NEED, but it works out well for me and my pasture situation since they naturally eat less when they aren't milking, which gives me a lot more grazing and I don't need to feed hay as early in the winter.. assuming I don't get a foot of snow (always a gamble there). One of my friends had a Jersey cow that hadn't had a calf in 5 years, and she was still giving them a gallon of milk once a day.. Personally, I don't mind the holiday from milking.. We made a TON of yogurt from Mega's milk in November, and kept cool it stores VERY well, we're still eating it now

I have wondered a bit about buying hay, and the costs associated with it. In this part of Mizzourah, things can range from pricey to really pricey. For instance, even in non-drought years (and we had a big nasty drought a few years back) the straw I use for the bantams' house is $7 a bale -- for STRAW, not "eating hay"! So I shudder to think what it might cost if I have to feed hay even for as little as a month. We'd go from "break even, gain a little" by not buying commercially processed milk products to "Alla, you are crazier than a june-bug and spending more money than a kid in a vid game store", it seems to me.

For one cow you can't make it pay to have the equipment... I'd suggest buying your year's worth of hay from someone early in the year, right off the field, you'll get the best price that way, and especially if you're a regular customer.

 

[yakker]

You mentioned only wanting to milk once a day, and not needing lot of milk. I'd recommend getting one of the traditional dairy breeds so there will be enough milk for you and the calf. Of course there are traditional beef breeds that will have excessive milk, but they're going to be more difficult to locate.

And you said you don't want to listen to a calf all night. That's pretty easy to solve. Milk the cow in the afternoon or evening and then put the calf with her. Leave them together overnight and separate them the next morning. Repeat.

I believe the old timers milked the cow in the evening and then locked the cow in the barn at night and then milked in the morning. The cow was typically on pasture during the day, maybe not the best pasture (maybe like your pasture) for good tasting milk. The evening milking was feed to calves, pigs, etc. When the cow was was locked in the barn, it was taken off feed for the night and the milk was good tasting when they milked it in the morning.

 

[yakker]

I would also like to stress that you would want to get a cow with good temperament, like others have mentioned. You can probably tame anything down to a certain point but some only so far. Here's an example:
A couple years ago, my son was taming a heifer calf down for the 4H fair. Even though he was 10, he wanted to do everything himself. With him being so young, I wanted to be with him while he was working with the calf...but had a hard time keeping my hands off his heifer! So I picked my own calf so we could work together. To make it a challenge, I picked one of those calves that always had her head in the air, not a mean calf, but very scared and jumpy, didn't want any contact with humans. She took a lot of extra work, but I got her tamed down and could do everything my son could do with his calf, but...she still had that frightening personality. As long as nothing frightened her, I could trust her to not kick no matter what I was doing with her. As soon as the cat came around the corner or any little thing, she would spook light crazy and sometimes let off a kick. I loved this heifer, she would melt in my hand like butter after I got her caught but I never did change her personality and this wasn't even a mean one. I've had a couple mean ones...even a two by four wouldn't straiten out, I'd sure hate to try and milk one of those! :shock:

 

[ANAZAZI]

First, leave the cow pies alone. No one pays you to mess with them. They are taken care of by earthworms and dungbeetles.

From here there is no way of knowing how many cows your pasture can feed. Dividing the pasture into smaller paddocks gives you more grass, but only two pieces will not be good enough.

Two litres of milk can be had from any and all breeds, no need for a dairy breed, just get a mellow cow.

Separating calf and cow overnight works fine, take the milk you need in the morning and let the calf have the rest. Breed the cow as soon as she is in heat, no need to wait.

 

[Nesikep]

There's no need to wait to breed her, but if you're keeping her primarily for milk and you can milk for perhaps 2 years, you have a steady supply. That said, the cow in heat is something that may take care of itself if there's a bull nearby!

 

[djinwa]

I've been experimenting with this for years, trying to come up with the simplest way to get milk, but not too much. Needs declined greatly after kids left. Some would ask why bother, but I happen to like my wife's oatmeal raisin cookies, and a slice of homemade bread with peanut butter and her plum jam (or raspberry, or.....) and they demand a big slug of ice cold real milk to get down. Not that burnt chalky stuff from the store. I'm dreading the next several weeks when cows are dried up.

Anyway, let me second what Nesi said. A beef cow will do fine. Of course, they vary in production, but I just dried up a small framed beef heifer I was milking, ten months after calving, and was getting nearly a gallon on good hay. Still had the calf attached to her so I didn't have to milk every day, and just kept separating calf for longer periods as her production declined. A gallon a couple times a week is good enough for us. Calf won't miss that, but can give it a touch of grain if want to.

You do need to feed well if keep them milking that long. Good hay or pasture, with a bit of grain if necessary. And minerals. Some people think milk is free, but it has to be made out of something that went in the cow.

Recommend against a dairy cow. If genetics produce alot of milk, need to be fed just right to avoid problems. And one calf won't keep up if you don't want much milk. I did the Jersey thing, and ended up throwing milk away. I didn't want to become a pig farmer to use it up, and didn't need extra calves or whatever. Just stealing from a beef cow as needed is the easiest way. Calf can take care of things when you don't want to milk.

Also not a fan of buying a used milk cow as have been burned many times. Many are sold at 5 years of age and have hidden mastitis, or milk fever at calving, or whatever.

To get started, if can find some nice gentle younger beef cows that are bred, good route to go, and can check out their udders. Cows are herd animals and do better with company. Can milk the one that is easiest, or milk both, and pick from future heifer calves if you like them better. Or you could buy a couple heifers and get bred to calving ease bull, but will be a while before you get milk. I prefer AI for just a few, if you can find someone to do it. I breed to smaller framed standard bulls like you would find at Pharo cattle where I got semen.

Halter breaking cow and her calf is good. I just tie cow in the corner of shed with tub of grain, and let calf in to suck for a minute to get milk let down, then pull calf away to other corner while I clean cow out. I halter train the calf starting with a llama halter as newborn.
As others mentioned, temperament is important. This one heifer was the hardest I've had to milk. Would not let me milk without calf at her side. Tried alot of tricks, but finally just tied calf up just short of reaching her udder and that was good enough for her. Gentle enough otherwise, but doesn't like you messing with udder. Got better as calf got older.

To milk, I put two, 2-qt jars in a bucket and take out to the shed. One jar is wide mouth with a canning funnel with cheesecloth. Other one is narrow mouth I milk into, then, pour it through funnel in other jar. I don't wash the cow, just give one squirt on floor and hold jar sideways while milking so nothing falls in it. When done, I take all in house, get another widemouth to filter rest of milk into, then throw both jars in the frig.

Works for me, but might not for others.

 

[Kell-inKY]

I need neighbors like this. I would gladly buy any extra milk (or cost share, whatever stupid government regulation you have to use to get around it)

heck, I would even buy the cow and keep it at my place if someone would milk it. Closest raw milk seller around me is a 2 hour round trip. We drink a LOT of milk but I already feel like the farm owns me instead of the other way around, I would really have to have a lot of passion for it in order for me to get up and milk a cow.

I read somewhere that a milking shorthorn was good for milk and meat, don't know if that's true. I would like Jersey since they say it has more fat, and I am a fat-aholic when it comes to food.