Question from one of my wife's friends

[BILL CLAYLAND]

I just got done fencing in a 5 acres hayfield last week, the stockpiled forage looks great.(since June 2010)
On Tuesday, I let my 3 head, one of them new to me registered Bred Hereford cow out on that lush grass.
Thursday mornin i was yellin MAMA COW, up they come a runnin, I dumped half a bucket of shell corn on the ground so I could get a look at the new cow,, they came up ate for 60 seconds left the corn and went back on grass.
I couldn't believe my eyes.
Guess they like grass,,,, but if im eating them ill take a little corn with'em

Also Im set, I kicked the hay habit,, this year. maybe next as well till i buy more cows and learn how to strip graze.
just in case i have 2.5tons in the barn

 

[Isomade]

It's all about money for the producers and consumers

and this is wrong because ?
despite the best efforts of the left....
this is still a country where the attempt to make money is allowed...
it used to be revered and lauded....
I real get tired of people trying to impose their standards on the rest of the world....
if you want to feed grain ....fine
if you don't want to feed grain.....also fine
but quit telling the other guy that he is wrong and an imbecile....
raise your product your way...
market it to the best of your ability....
and I hope everyone has sucess....
people in agriculture have alway taken great delight in denigrating their fellow agriculturalist and suceeded in driving wedges within the industry.


i suppose the independent spirit is what has them all convinced that only they are right.
but there seems to be an inability to look past differences and see common ground.
beef sells against chicken....
pork is the other white meat....
the organics lambast the conventional....
the conventional poo poo the organics....
every breeder of every breed insist his breed is best....even some with two or three breeds....
there is merit to trying to preserve a rare breed....
there is merit to being a part of a popular and widespread breed....
there is little merit to making every cause a campaign for battle....
a life time in various sales endeavors taught me to....
accentuate the positive.....avoid the negative.....sell what you got.....be as good as your word ....
let the market decide......repeat
not everyone will buy every time.... but people will rememeber how you treated them.
sometimes a few that you didn't sell, will even tell you much later that you were right...

:nod: hit it on the head for me

 

[GMN]

Its all about perception, some professional tells people its better for you without this and that, a new craze is born, and then people get into it, create niche where they make some money at first until the fade passes. I don't buy organc anything, its all overpriced without proof of anything.

GMN

 

[MO_cows]

I think it's great that there is a market for organic, grass fed, kosher, etc. The more markets, the more diversity in production, means more opportunity and it's good for everyone. But it is not right for the producers selling one production method to do so by slamming the others, especially with half truths and mumbo jumbo that hasn't been scientifically studied or proven. That's stooping to the level of mud slinging politicians, and who really wants to go there??

 

[djinwa]

For those feeling the entire food production system and their way of life is under attack, I'm not against feeding grain. I, and many more consumers just don't think it should happen at the maximum rate an animal can tolerate, with a significant percentage suffering. The dose makes the poison. I actually talked a guy into feeding grain a couple weeks ago to some pot-bellied young calves not getting enough energy from their hay. He had learned all grain is bad, but I mentioned as others here have, that grass seed in his hay has carbohydrate and is somewhat of a grain. Told him to just limit their intake.

Seems that feedlot veterinarians who took an oath to protect animal health and prevent suffering could insist that grain levels be taken down a notch or two to find a better balance between animal welfare and economics. But I've heard some of them say their income depended on the health problems.

It's all about money for the producers and consumers

and this is wrong because ?

I guarantee you that I'm all for making money and am more right-wing free market than you. But there has to be a limit on what we put animals through to make that money. Most of us would object to our neighbor consistently starving their cattle to supposedly save money. Seems we also should have a problem with making them sick.

Besides, if healthier cattle keep the consumers happy, then it does mean more money in the long run. Fortunately right now, most consumers are ignorant, but guys like Michael Pollan are changing that. We might think he and consumers are idiots and we can only do things the way they're done. Reminds me of the guy here who swore he could only get cattle out of the brush with a shotgun. Lead in meat resulted in countries like S. Korea banning U.S. beef. Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture.

Note that in the Animal Science article, there is no mention of animal well-being. It is purely an economics problem in the narrow view:

Besides liver condemnation, economic impacts include reduced feed intake, reduced weight gain, decreased feed efficiency, and decreased carcass yield.

My daughter is now taking an Animal Welfare class in the Animal Science department of WSU (WA State). They don't even talk about this stuff. I sense the goal is to try and keep everyone ignorant and then react when the problem is discovered. Instead, it would be better to get ahead of the consumers.

Here's what is apparently a little known fact. If cattle are unhealthy and in pain their feed intake and rate of gain is greatly reduced. Unhealthy cattle lose money nearly everytime. Why would I feed grain if it continually lost me money?

Because cattle gain much better on grain because it is energy dense, and grain is cheap, due to government subsidies and cheap energy. Even if they're sick to some extent, they might gain more than if on grass/hay.

We have a family friend with a feedlot my brother helped build and he worked at for years. I worked there some. You can make money with cheap feed despite a good sized dead pile.

Rather than feeling threatened, you'd almost think the cow-calf guy would be happy if grain was less subsidized and desired. After all, they are the ones with the grass and there would be more demand for beef from them. Maybe start grazing a few more golf courses to meet demand.

 

[Santas and Duhram Reds]

I have read the grass fed beef is not as good for you because it is higher in LDLs than grain fed beef. Grain fed beef is higher in HDLs.

 

[vclavin]

The truth. Just another method of marketing cattle primarily to those who have little to no understanding of commercial agriculture. The truth. A very lean cut of meat is better for you than a nicely marbled piece of meat. Might be tough as nails but who would care in this day and time.

Not true, there's actually more "bad" bad in a lean cut of meant than in "nicely marbles" meat.
http://www.mymfn.com/?p=957
Valerie

 

[TexasBred]

Djinwa,, I know of noone other than feedlots and dairy operations that feed large amounts of what you refer to as "grain". Animal health is as much a concern of theres as anyone elses. Note I said "health". I haven't yet been able to really determine when my cattle are "happy". I'll leave that to you. As long as they come when I pull up to the gate, eat when I feed them, breed and have calves I assume they're happy. Feedlot cattle have to be fed heavily to get the gain necessary. The same for dairy cattle. To get 100 lbs. or more of milk per day takes a lot of feed......but examine the rations. ALL good operations feed a well balanced ration. That means adequate roughage. If formulated and fed properly there is no acidosis but if there is I mentioned an inexpensive product that gets rid of acidosis.... much like you would take a Rolaid.

Now lets look at the "grain". Most mixes are not all grain, but rather a lot of grain by-products. Make a note: These contain a very little starch (carbs). Cattle gain well on them and they are not antagonistic to the animals digestive system. Most have almost double the protein and almost as much energy as corn. Cattle thrive on them. I assure you that anytime you buy a bag of pelleted feed or range cubes 75% or more of it is grain by-products and filler. Very little corn.
Most folks on here I feel feed "grain" to cows and calves to get them thru a stressful period and not done day in and day out "maxed out". We depend on grass...lots of it...and hay, baleage and/or silage.

The cattle are well taken care, the meat is tasty and healthy and the cows are happy. If they tear down a fence and get into the neighbors place it's probably because the fence needs work. Not that the cows prefer whats on the other side.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

This has been a great thread. People should re-read the post on the first page by "Howdyjabo".

Let's get real, ALL CATTLE ARE GRASS FED.
Cattle (steers) eat grass from when they are born till they go on a finishing ration. Eating a TMR for 60-90 days does NOT make them "not grass fed". They are grass fed about 80-85% of their life.

There are enough people trying to bash beef - it's time for our industry to quit bashing each other.
I do not/ will not eat grass FINISHED beef - but that's MY CHOICE.
And, oh BTW, here's an article that research showed that GRAIN FED hamburg is healthier than GRASS FED. http://www.drovers.com/news_editorial.a ... 997&ts=nl1

I want to applaud Howdyjabo and Texas Bred for the common sense comments they made.

 

[Howdyjabo]

Thanks Jeanne
I think your post was good too.
I need to hear sometimes that my posts are worth posting

 

[vclavin]

Thanks as well Jeanne. Really good article. If I'm understanding it correctly, it is the "marbling" that is healthy . Sounds like the grass fed does not "marble" as well. I have heard Vitamin B - grass is high in this - prevents marbling deposition. If they could breed for an animal that could marble despite the B problem, or raise pasture that is naturally low in Vitamin B. Then grass fed may marble as well and produce similiar results on the human body as grain fed.
I choose grain fed as well.... although the feed is mostly byproducts.
Valerie

 

[Jogeephus]

The truth. Just another method of marketing cattle primarily to those who have little to no understanding of commercial agriculture. The truth. A very lean cut of meat is better for you than a nicely marbled piece of meat. Might be tough as nails but who would care in this day and time.

Not true, there's actually more "bad" bad in a lean cut of meant than in "nicely marbles" meat.
http://www.mymfn.com/?p=957
Valerie

Thank you for correcting me. I'm surprised there is actually something that I like that is not considered bad for me. :banana:

 

[TexasBred]

Jogee please notice..this article applied only to "Angus" marbling. :lol2: Hopefully you gotta few around. If not Val will sell you a good one properly finished, ready for slaughter.

 

[vclavin]

Jogee please notice..this article applied only to "Angus" marbling. :lol2: Hopefully you gotta few around. If not Val will sell you a good one properly finished, ready for slaughter.

:banana: :banana: ;-)

 

[AllForage]

This has been a great thread. People should re-read the post on the first page by "Howdyjabo".

Let's get real, ALL CATTLE ARE GRASS FED.
Cattle (steers) eat grass from when they are born till they go on a finishing ration. Eating a TMR for 60-90 days does NOT make them "not grass fed". They are grass fed about 80-85% of their life.

There are enough people trying to bash beef - it's time for our industry to quit bashing each other.
I do not/ will not eat grass FINISHED beef - but that's MY CHOICE.
And, oh BTW, here's an article that research showed that GRAIN FED hamburg is healthier than GRASS FED. http://www.drovers.com/news_editorial.a ... 997&ts=nl1

We all know we are referring to grass-raised and grass-finished. The difference is the "finishing" ration. Come on now. Find a study a little less biased before you pat yourself on your back. Bought and paid for and presented to Cattleman's association. The whole picture was not taken into consideration anyways. My customers do their research and are very educated on health issues. I would hope they do before they pay a buck or more per pound for beef. I get several phone calls and emails a week and have a client list of over 150 families. The overwhelmingly majority are conservative people, almost no tree-hugging, long-haired, FM types. Like I and others have stated the market is big enough for everyone. Just don't let the big machine swallow you up listening to "expert" advice.

 

[dun]

Just don't let the big machine swallow you up listening to "expert" advice.

You might consider that you could follow the same suggestion.

 

[TexasBred]

This has been a great thread. People should re-read the post on the first page by "Howdyjabo".

Let's get real, ALL CATTLE ARE GRASS FED.
Cattle (steers) eat grass from when they are born till they go on a finishing ration. Eating a TMR for 60-90 days does NOT make them "not grass fed". They are grass fed about 80-85% of their life.

There are enough people trying to bash beef - it's time for our industry to quit bashing each other.
I do not/ will not eat grass FINISHED beef - but that's MY CHOICE.
And, oh BTW, here's an article that research showed that GRAIN FED hamburg is healthier than GRASS FED. http://www.drovers.com/news_editorial.a ... 997&ts=nl1

We all know we are referring to grass-raised and grass-finished. The difference is the "finishing" ration. Come on now. Find a study a little less biased before you pat yourself on your back. Bought and paid for and presented to Cattleman's association. The whole picture was not taken into consideration anyways. My customers do their research and are very educated on health issues. I would hope they do before they pay a buck or more per pound for beef. I get several phone calls and emails a week and have a client list of over 150 families. The overwhelmingly majority are conservative people, almost no tree-hugging, long-haired, FM types. Like I and others have stated the market is big enough for everyone. Just don't let the big machine swallow you up listening to "expert" advice.

Bro...ever back patting grass fed beef study or article I've ever read was done by the grass fed promoters as well, as I would expect it to be....but I believe you're the same guy that does not vaccinate or give shots. Right?? What about your kids?? Glad to know you and your customers are very educated on health issues. Love how you in almost every post you say the market is big enough for everyone and that you're never recommending anything to anyone, yet you constanatly promote your methods as being the best if not only proper way to do things.

 

[AllForage]

Texasinbred,

You follow me so much that I think you might have a crush. I stated that I do not vaccinate, you are correct. I did not promote it and said it is a personal choice. For example, I have lost about 2-3 lambs for the last 3 years to over-eating disease out of about 50. Now that I have seen a pattern and understand what is going on I will vaccinate the lambs. This may be seen as a risky way of doing things, but I am the one who will succeed or suffer the financial results. To answer your question, I did vaccinate my kids thanks for caring so much to ask. Why? Because they are exposed to all different types of people from who knows where. My cattle are not. I have a closed system from conception to harvest.

I do not wish to come across promoting or judging like some folks do here. I merely hoped to present alternative methods to the norm. When you and some other "gurus" attack I won't back down. You also from day one have obviously had a poor view of grassfed or anything outside your world view. I simply have stated what I have done and has worked. As for grassfed being better or not compared to grainfed we will have to agree to disagree. My market statement is about tolerance and reconizing its benefits. If someone doesn't want to pay big bucks for organic they will find you. Thats how it works. The experts have bankrupted more dairyman here than they have saved.

Not to sound like someone just kicked my dog, but I don't think this is the right site for me.

Thanks

 

[TexasBred]

Sorry you feel that way. You're always welcome.I just reserve the right to disagree. ;-)