Question for Larryshoat ..

[hillsdown]

OK anyone with experience with this drug can help please, but I know that Larry has used it for sure..

So I have two animals with suspected pneumonia in early stages. I have treated both with nuflor and an anti inflammatory..Now if I don't see significant improvement in the next day I want to switch drugs and was thinking of Excced or Draxxin. Draxxin is straightforward so the question is about Excced.
It says that it is applied like an implant in the ear, so does it come with everything you need to apply it and is it easy to apply . So anyone that has used it can you please tell me all the ins and outs of using the drug exceed.

Thanks..

 

[larryshoat]

hd, Excede uses a special needle that is ground at an angle and does not come with the medicine . It does require about the same skill as putting in an implant . I always leave the needle in for a second and use my thumb to push the medicine farther into the ear so that it does not leak out . Excede is the same basic drug as Naxcel and Excenel . In my opinion Draxxin is a newer, better drug for pneumonia . Hope this helps .

Larry

 

[hillsdown]

Thanks Larry, that is why I asked, as I have never done an implant before..So I will use draxxin instead ...Hopefully they both will have responded positively to the nuflor and will be on their way up so I don't have to switch drugs..

Thanks again.. :wave:

 

[cfpinz]

I'm kind of partial to micotil myself, just don't stick yourself. Cheaper than draxxin and I've seen some amazing turnarounds from it. Also, I wouldn't rule out baytril.

 

[rockridgecattle]

HD,
Contact your vet or the pfizer rep for your area. I believe they (the vet or rep) will for free show you how to use Excede (sp) with the new needle. They are to come to you or you go to them, I am not sure. It's been a while. If you get it wrong, it could cost you the animal.
The cool thing about Excede is the withdrawl time and the dose interval time. Withdrawl is like 2-4 days (memory here) and treatment is 10-14 days (again memory)

Talk to your vet about it.

RR

 

[hillsdown]

Thanks everyone, RR my vet is on a well deserved holiday in Mexico ,and he is the only one I like to talk to. Will call him when he gets back.

Cpinz I haven't used micotil since 1997 it was over used here and has lost it's effectiveness. Thank God Nuflor came out at the same time.

Good news both animals had their heads in the feeder this morning and were pigging out, breathing is not labored anymore and seem to be well on their way to a full recovery..thankfully, as one of them is Angel and I would hate to lose her she is not only an exceptional cow but kind of a pet. Her heifer is the one that likes beer.. :lol2:

Thanks again. :tiphat:

 

[milkmaid]

I use Exceed SC or IM... as long as it gets in the animal it doesn't matter if it's in the ear or in the neck. (My vet's comment.) Been working fine for me when given SC so I see no need to change.

 

[rockridgecattle]

I use Exceed SC or IM... as long as it gets in the animal it doesn't matter if it's in the ear or in the neck. (My vet's comment.) Been working fine for me when given SC so I see no need to change.

The problem arises with the withdrawl. Talk to a pfizer rep and you will find out that the idea of in the ear cuts the withdrawl time 10 fold. If you give sub Q or IM you change the withdrawl time from 2-4 days to 40+ days. It's in the way they formulated the drug. Specific for feedlots
Specific for pnemonia
Specific for withdrawl times
Your vet might recommend something that is counter to the label and it might be ok, but you need to check with the company that makes the drug to see if the witdrawl time change

 

[redcowsrule33]

I use Exceed SC or IM... as long as it gets in the animal it doesn't matter if it's in the ear or in the neck. (My vet's comment.)

Your vet apparently isn't concerned about your behind if you get caught with a "hot" cow at the stockyards.

Exceed is a good product BUT if you don't give it the ear or use the "base of ear" sites (a lot easier and it is a labeled method) you have an incredible slaughter withhold. Why? The carrier stays much longer in the tissues but if given in the labeled sites it is trimmed out and not a problem for the carcass. The ear or BOE sites are a pain the buttocks but it's not worth risking an antibiotic violation. With great respect to your vet who I am sure is a very wonderful person attitudes like that hurt the industry's reputation. BQA is there for a reason. And before any dairy guys try to say otherwise your endproduct is still beef! The Golden Arches would be nowhere without you.

As far as what drug - they all have their merits. Base it on what you're fighting and what works for your herd.

 

[milkmaid]

All we're concerned about is a milk withhold time - dairy herd - and milk withdrawal is still 0 hours.

FWIW, Excede is the same drug as Excenel/Naxcel only at a higher concentration; therefore, the slaughter withdrawal will not be significantly different from the withdrawal for those drugs. Still looking at less than a week.

I worry as much as the rest of you about withdrawal times; I do plenty of off-label usage but I'm always conscious of withdrawals when I'm ready to ship an animal.

 

[rockridgecattle]

All we're concerned about is a milk withhold time - dairy herd - and milk withdrawal is still 0 hours.

FWIW, Excede is the same drug as Excenel/Naxcel only at a higher concentration; therefore, the slaughter withdrawal will not be significantly different from the withdrawal for those drugs. Still looking at less than a week.

I worry as much as the rest of you about withdrawal times; I do plenty of off-label usage but I'm always conscious of withdrawals when I'm ready to ship an animal.

The carrier for Excede is different than the other two, not just a higher concentration. The withdrawl is indeed different. Check with the company who makes it. They WILL tell you differently.

I use Exceed SC or IM... as long as it gets in the animal it doesn't matter if it's in the ear or in the neck. (My vet's comment.) Been working fine for me when given SC so I see no need to change.

When you made this statement you made no reference to the fact that is is withdrawl on milk you are worried about. For the rest of us who are beef, that makes a huge difference. Too someone who is a novice, that could mean the difference between selling a clean animal and getting fined for selling contaminated meat.

I just called my vet, she will call me back when she gets a minute...she knows the withdrawl time changes she will tell me how much

 

[rockridgecattle]

just talked to my vet and it can be fatal if given other than the ear. It also changes the withdrawal time if the animal lives. She did not give withdrawal times because she was quite adimant that it be given in the ear!

It is also a completely different drug than excenel because of the way it is suspended. Same drug, different processing

 

[milkmaid]

Considering that I've been routinely giving it in the neck for the past 2-3 years (I can't remember when it first came out) and haven't had a fatality yet with several dozen cows treated, I'd be taking the rest of that vet's commentary with more than a grain of salt.

 

[rockridgecattle]

Well MilkMaid, I see this is one of those few times we will not agree on. Sometimes that happens. Might i suggest though that if it is off label use that your vet seems fit to advise you, you keep it to yourself especially because we are not all milk producers, and beef is different.
Also we have a host of newbies to cattle who are learning what is right and what is wrong. We have alot of cattle produces who use the search. If they come upon your post on excede and use it that way it could cause more harm than good and they could end up getting fined for contaminated meat or worse the animal goes into shock or dies, or gets a tongue lashing from their vet for inapropriate use of a drug when something goes wrong.
Teach them the right way and let them get the off label use dispensed from their vet in a manner that is safe, personal...that one on one with their vet.

I mean really what are they going to say to the vet or the meat inspector fining them:
"Well Milk maid ( or whoever from CT) said it was OK"
Their reply will be:
"Ignorance can not plead the fifth, should have consulted a live, living breathing, in your face person called a vet to get the right advice. Or you should have read the label yourself."

 

[hillsdown]

You are right RR and it applies to all of us....Sometimes we divulge to much information and yes it can be deadly in the wrong hands,,,I too am guilty of that at times..BUT it also says on the CT boards to consult a vet before doing anything..

So I guess if we are going to share vet secrets and off label things we should PM each other instead... :tiphat:

 

[milkmaid]

So does your prohibition extend to all off label uses or just Excede, RR?

Consider penicillin: I know I'm not the only person on here that's aware penicillin G is useless at the labeled dosages; maybe we ought not tell newbies in the future what they need to know to keep that cow alive?

Anyone who comes on this board should know they're only getting advice from a bunch of nameless strangers who may or may not know what they're talking about. That's why there's a convenient notice at the bottom of the index page informing users that Cattle Today is not liable for information dispensed on this board. There's a post on the Nutrition board about drugs; I made sure to put labeled doses and withdrawal times. In real life I rarely follow those labeled doses precisely -- sometimes you need to treat for 7 days to prevent a relapse, or prevent antibiotic resistance. I would hope I'm not the only one who does that. I have no problem informing people when I'm recommending something off label, but at the same time if they're incapable of reading a label and comparing it with the advice they might want to reconsider owning livestock. If they don't know the dose/route for a drug then you'd think a newbie might consider calling the vet they purchased it from...

...which brings me to another point. Us livestock producers are completely on our own, in case you hadn't noticed. There's a lot of worthless advice given out online, as well as a lot of worthless advice from vets, if the information that's relayed from vet to producer to forum over the last few years is any indicator. Shucks, I personally had a vet give me 14mL of penicillin G for a 1400lb cow with severe footrot. All I have to say is check, double check and triple check all information received from any and all sources. I can think of 3 bovines offhand that would have been culled had I not done some independent research.

Back to Excede; according to the label the only fatalities (9 out of 6,000 test animals) were a direct result of intra-arterial injection in the ear. Apparently getting the drug into the blood stream in high doses isn't very healthy for cattle -- the animals died within 30 minutes. Therefore -- please note, newbies, this is an off label discussion -- there is no reason it should be any more likely to be fatal in the neck than in the ear as long as it is not injected IV or intra-arterial.

 

[rockridgecattle]

you win Milk maid!
If you are going to use Excede the wrong way knock your self out

I want to say more on your little tiraid there but i will not



Acutally may be i will!
When i use Pen G I follow directions and it works quite well thank you very mcuh. Haven't used in a long time. I happen to like LA200 and is good for most things that happen on our farm...such as foot rot, and right early stages of navel ill.
I like nuflor, it works for things like advanced stages of navel ill, and pnemonia...
I like sulfas for scours and secondary prevention when treating for scours
That is about all you will find in our drug cabinet.
And that is what our vet uses and saves the strong stuff when it is really needed...And she is a believer in treating as needed when needed with what is needed. She treats cow calf different than dairy and feedlots different than the other two cause each operation has it's own set of issues. She does not believe in a one size fits all.
She is also a believer in management playing a 90% role in most sicknesses on the farm, and a firm believer in getting people to change their management practices, financially practical management changes i might add, to minimize drug use. Some management practices that are simple such as a complete mineral for the animals, or vaccinations to prevent.

...Maybe if people stuck to the way drugs should be given...dose and type of injection...ie SQ/ IM/ in the ear...
...Maybe if people used drugs for what they were needed for...
...Maybe if people quite drug hoping if something does not miracously clear up after the first treatment...
...Maybe if people followed through on drugs and treated for a full course instead of forgetting to give the next dose or figuring the animal was well enough to make it on it's own thus causing resistance...

...Just maybe we wouldn't be crying to drug manufactures to make us something stronger that worked cause we abused the stuff that was made for our cows with specific directions on how to use in the first place!
...there are directions for a reason.
You want to be a vet, be a good one and be apart of the solution...dont' abuse drugs doses and don't give bad drug advice

I'm outta here!

 

[milkmaid]

RR, if you're going to play the "use each drug according to label directions" card, then you'd better follow your own rules. You mentioned using Nuflor for navel ill... that's off label. You mentioned using LA200 for navel ill... that's also off label, in case you weren't aware.

Shucks, if we're going to get technical about it, here's the label for LA200:

• The treatment of pneumonia and shipping fever complex associated with Pasteurella spp. and Hemophilus spp.; infectious bovine keratoconjunctivitis (pinkeye) caused by Moraxella bovis; footrot and diphtheria caused by Fusobacterium necrophorum; bacterial enteritis (scours) caused by Escherichia coli; wooden tongue caused by Actinobacillus lignieresii; leptospirosis caused by Leptospira pomona; and wound infections and acute metritis caused by strains of staphylococci and streptococci organisms sensitive to oxytetracycline.

So unless a person cultures each and every case of bacterial illness prior to treating they may well be using something like LA200 off label. What if you're treating a case of Salmonella-caused calf scours with LA200? that'd be off label too.

I agree that there would be less drug resistance if proper doses were used, the right drugs used for the right bacterial infection, and the animals were treated long enough. I picked up some calves this spring that even Gentimycin and Draxxin wouldn't hardly touch, and I'm rather... I won't even say it... about antibiotic treatment now because those drug-resistant calves were a mess. However, I do disagree that a person must follow drug instructions precisely, because the drug labels often are only covering the basics, or only covering a few specific items so that the antibiotic can be approved with the least cost and lowest withdrawal times. LA200 will work for cases of E. coli mastitis based on that label, but it's sure not approved for it. It can also be used for Actinomycosis (Lumpy Jaw) yet that's not listed on the label either. I've used sulfas for urinary tract infections, Baytril for ear infections, and penicillin for uterine infections/acute metritis, all things they aren't approved for but work quite well for. IMO there's nothing wrong with that.

You might get away with using penicillin at low doses because you have a closed herd and rarely treat -- or maybe you're just lucky, but the average producer with an open herd has to use penn at 5mL/100lbs to get any response. The label says 1mL/100lbs or 2mL/150lbs.

You're also contradicting yourself over there, RR. According to you it'd be wrong for a producer to treat beyond the time listed on the label because that's off-label use, but yet you say "Maybe if people followed through on drugs and treated for a full course instead of forgetting to give the next dose or figuring the animal was well enough to make it on it's own thus causing resistance...". The problem with most antibiotics out there is that the label says "a maximum of 2 treatments 48 hours apart" or some slight variation on that. That is NOT a full course of treatment and is a major problem with the drug label. If people did the research to know what to use, when, how, why, and how long, or else vets were more honest about the length of time to treat, we wouldn't have near as much antibiotic resistance.

 

[TheBullLady]

I'll help you out here MM! I'm going to jump right in, and admit that I frequently use drugs "off label", with the consent / advise of a vet. We've been raising cattle for over 20 years, and have had some great vets, and I hardly think they would recommend something other than the label instructions if they thought there would be a problem! Good grief..who do you think it would ultimately lead back to?? When a vet knows their client, and their cattle operation, they can make these decisions. This isn't a life and death deal we're talking about.. you forget that when these drugs come on the market, they are tested nine ways to Sunday.

If I have a calf with pnuemonia, guess what? I use more than the label states! Get out the handcuffs and haul me off! If the bovine never leaves my place, what is the problem? The problem is people that over treat, use the wrong procedure, and then SHIP the cow!

MM you've always given great advise.. and I can't imagine anyone on this board EVER suffering from anything you've offered to help with! RR.. you're totally missing the point.

 

[rockridgecattle]

The point is Excede is designed for in the ear only due to the way it is manufactured.
Anywhere else leads to drug residuals and super long withdrawl times. Talk to the pfizer rep. The company that makes the drug. The company who is required to test the drug nine ways from Sunday. The company who manufactures it for a specific way.
Unless Milkmaid's or any other vet has done their own scientific testing they are shootin the $hit when saying it's okay to use a drug anywhere else than what it was specifically designed for. Ask your vet for his/her testing for drug residuals in the meat or milk. As well ask for your vets scientific data on residual for excede. Then ask the pfizer rep
just so you know
When you increase the dosage on any drug that surpases the weight/cc you increase the withdrawl time.
If the drug is designed for a specific injection and you give it another way, you increase the withdrawl time and as well increase the risk of death or animal problems as well as drug residuals
By changing the way we administer drugs we change the values the label gives, and their effectiveness.
That was my point!
I took my own advice, I talked to our vet about this specifically so i would not be shoving my foot farther down my throat.
As per our area pfizer rep, via our area vet, (The vet talked with Pfizer on this cause i asked her about MM's claim) because of the way Excede is formulated, withdrawal time is very very long and they will run into residual issues. They can get away with in the ear injection cause the ear it is cut off at slaughter. If i remember my seminar on excede, it is slow release.
If anyone belonged to a quality assurance program, they would be tossed out on their but for this. Especially since you are required to log all drug uses on the animals, including, where administered, how much, how it was given, and if a needle was broken. And when you get aduited you are required to show your log. You are even audited before you enter the program.

All I can say is that this is crazy crap when we are argueing about how to administer drugs. We can all read, and we all can see the public is watching us like hawks, especially when there is a problem at slaughter or when someone gets sick.
They are already calling for limited uses on drugs due to resistance in the human population. We need to get our #%$# together so that when the time comes we have something to stand on that we are responsible cattle/livestock producers.
It's words like this that get us into trouble with the people who buy our product

I use Exceed SC or IM... as long as it gets in the animal it doesn't matter if it's in the ear or in the neck. (My vet's comment.) Been working fine for me when given SC so I see no need to change.

If this is not bad advice, i do not know what is