Purebred Angus bulls without papers

[bigbluegrass]

I guess my point still remains. People from all over the world read these posts. They will be reading these posts for years to come. They will be judging Ky cattle producers based on what a few posters on a cattle site had to say back in 2019 and pictures they saw. Most of the people who read these posts have never been and probably never will be in the state of Ky. They will never be able to see the farms where people are doing things well. They will never be able to drive down the back roads in May and see fields full of cattle who are getting fat on grass and clover pastures. I live in the country. I can't go anywhere without driving through miles of back roads. I can tell you there are some producers who do a much better job than others. Right now, every farm I drive past is a giant mud mess. Even the producers who normally do things well are struggling. I see hundreds of acres of pasture that were covered in grass 4 months ago that are now a mud mess. I saw pictures on the news the other day of those high dollar KY horse farms down by Lexington. Guess what, they had mud just as bad as I do. It sucks. This constant rain is hard on man and beast. In a few months this state will be green and growing grass like none other. Please don't throw all KY cattle producers under the bus because of the current weather and a few poor producers. If you want to make a difference, go talk to the producers you think need some help. I can tell you if you approach them like you post on this forum, you'll be lucky to escape alive.

Raven, you said it is not personal. It is personal for the producers you are running down. It is personal for your neighbor whose cattle you posted pictures of. It is personal for me, because I am a producer in the state. If you were as smart as you think you are, you would realize it is personal for you also.

Dawg, I guess you want to take everyone's cows away who is a poorer caretaker than you. I'd challenge you to take that message to Frankfort, but politicians are probably stupid enough to pass legislation on it after reading a few posts on this forum. Every cattle producer I have personally met in Ky, even if their farms don't reflect it, have a great love for their cattle. None would intentionally try to harm their cattle.

I am not saying we can't do better. We can. But that discussion belongs at your local extension office meetings. Let's see if we can help each other. I will throw this challenge out to Raven and Brookehill and any other bull breeder in the state who thinks their KY neighbors don't know how to run cattle. Donate one bull a year to one of these good for nothing neighbors of yours! I am sure you can afford to give away one bull to help people understand what they are missing out on. Show them how great your genetics are! You will probably gain a client for life and maybe for many generations to come, if your genetics are as good as you think!

 

[bigbluegrass]

Considering that the first Angus heifers arrived on our farm in 1967, we have a few generations in the herd. We also have around 10 cows that are over 13 years old, they have had calves, and their calves have had calves and so on. We don't linebreed here, for many years we used bulls from Stone Gate, bulls that were usually sired by AI or were from breeders out West, but for several years it's been almost entirely AI. We also AI'd in the early 70's to Wye sires, and their descendants are in the herd.

I understand that you see HD50k or Angus source as complete nonsense. It's that crazy science stuff, it can't possibly be as accurate as your eye. A high density DNA test will never pinhook like you can. I get it...not really...I couldn't imagine not using it in this day and age. It reveals a lot, and some people aren't comfortable with that, I see it as room for improvement, it is what it is, and if your animal needs improvement, back to the drawing board.

The reason I like to use AI versus linebreeding my whole herd is mostly because I think linebreeding is a tool that should be used carefully if not sparingly. Unless you are an expert which maybe you are, who knows?

I've noticed over the past few years that not only do my AI calves look better from a phenotype standpoint, but they have improved EPD's, am I missing something? they almost always are an improvement over the past generation. I think they call it evolution.

Also, just because someone else cuts half their calf crop does not mean I should do it. I think it would not serve me well to have an arbitrary number or goal "cut half the bulls, no matter what, it must be half" I do plan on cutting most if not all the non AI calves going forward, selling a non AI bull is not worth the hassle involved. This thread was started to see if selling cheap bulls made sense, and I heard everyone loud and clear on CT. NO WAY IN H..LL does it make sense over the long haul.

I have taken one bit of advice, from True Grit, get them in a test. I'm making arrangements to send my first group to Midland as soon as they will accept them, and as many as they will accept which will be around 5 from my conversation with them. That should settle the score on whether my cattle have any merit. I might add that I was also considering putting at least one homegrown bull out of the herd sire you see me post about on here, he's a Stone Gate bull from an Apex Angus sire, in order to see how he will perform against the AI sires. I'm making a premature bet that he will not gain as well in comparison to my AI sires, but at least we will get data and see. A couple of his sons have a 3.8 pound per day rate of gain, but I think that is only because their low input genetics are holding them back.

I thought I was being honest and progressive as well by DNA testing everything, proving parentage, then breeding those AI daughters back AI, again and again. I see progress as though EPD's begin to climb higher and higher and the calves look better and better.

As for SAV, I could have easily purchased the Emulation XXP semen and tried to create my own version of Elation, but I wanted SAV's maternal genetics in my animals. I couldn't readily purchase that unless through the semen.

Gizmom is not my competition, why are you trying to set it up like that.

Oh, one more thing Eddie Draper at Wye told me that he would strongly advise me NOT to breed to some of the very old Wye bulls if I could get my hands on the semen and make it work, he told me that he thought I would be setting my herd back in a big way. My ABS rep, who I trust, said he did something similar as an experiment with poor results. I will leave breeding to the older bulls like SAV did or linebreeding to the pros, I'm not there yet in my knowledge, and taking a top AI sire and breeding to a good cow has worked well for me, why change?

OK I get the negative opinions of me and the false assumptions (sign of poor character according to your support staff, Ron), the bait and switch of creating enemies and competition for you, bring in Wye or the semen salesman side note.... Smoke screens and decoy tactics don't cut it.

Now, tell me the scientific and modern answers. Don't avoid the technical details if you think or assume I have a poor IQ to go along with my collection of stone man cave wall paintings of feral cattle. :shock: Give it to me straight without the commentary and sales pitch. How much quicker, how much better, how to change old genes to new genes? It has to be real answers for it to be so useful. What are the answers?

Ebenezer, don't you think it is amazing that breeds of cattle were developed without EPDs and DNA testing! Can you imagine the first angus cattle coming into existence without ANY DNA testing or EPDs. There is no way that could ever happen. It must be a fable from a child's book! (obviously this is my attempt at online sarcasm) :mrgreen: :hide:

 

[Ebenezer]

Ebenezer, don't you think it is amazing that breeds of cattle were developed without EPDs and DNA testing! Can you imagine the first angus cattle coming into existence without ANY DNA testing or EPDs. There is no way that could ever happen. It must be a fable from a child's book!

BBgrass, I am sorry that your state has been literally drug thru the mud in public by two home town boys who went out of state to make a name for themselves and then come home to trash talk their neighbors and their state. I like Ky, have been there quite a bit, have friends there, have cattle from there and links there to tell me that these two guys are not 100% accurate on their tales. I would come back and buy cattle there again in a heartbeat if I needed them. The Ky sources: folks I really know and they have not been mentioned here for name slinging and they have great Angus cattle which function so well. If accuracy of negative statements are poor (I think that the are), then the only other reason that they trash neighbors day after day is to imply superiority. That is quite obvious in the air of the posts, the snide remarks, the cuts and such. What I have learned the most: two places in KY to not buy cattle.

Genomics are modern, new and helpful. I understand that. They help breeders of cattle that are most aligned with the base data. They are supposed to speed selection. They are tools to help. They are an additional cost and effort. So all I want to know from the two experts with out of state life experiences who are modern and feeding the best, using the award winning Vets, on their game, top genetics in their tanks, hate the people of their state, the brightest of futures compared to the trashy neighbors, ... how much more improvement and how much quicker with genomic testing? How can I or SAV take old genetics and make them better newer genetics? But I keep getting sniper fire from the insult crew and non-answers. "Just the facts, maam".

 

[Bright Raven]

Shawn

I understand your point. The difference comes in on the degree of damage you perceive. I don't perceive that much damage is caused by pictures of a sorry cattle operation. I have no reservations about having posted them. That guy lost several of his cows and probably 75 % of his fall calf crop. It is not a secret. The guy does not reside here. He bought the land in the last 2 years. He visits on an episodic basis. Maybe only coming on the weekend. To use the old True Grit cliche - he needs one behind the left ear.

That kind of disgusting crap needs to be exposed. I agree with you. I was raised in the county where you reside. No one deliberately tries to do a bad job but unfortunately SOME not MANY do a poor job of animal husbandry.

 

[Caustic Burno]

All this thread has become is a pile of pasture protein. This thread left the constructive train tracks pages ago.

 

[Bright Raven]

All this thread has become is a pile of pasture protein. This thread left the constructive train tracks pages ago.

On a content basis - I agree 100 %. The primary theme is marketing Purebred Angus. It has wandered all over the place. But despite the lack of useful content, there have been several posts that say it is a good thread.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Overall I do not see it as representing us well as a group IMO.

 

[Bright Raven]

Overall I do not see it as representing us well as a group IMO.

That can be said of many threads. It is contingent on your attitude, values, and philosophy.

 

[bigbluegrass]

Ebenezer, don't you think it is amazing that breeds of cattle were developed without EPDs and DNA testing! Can you imagine the first angus cattle coming into existence without ANY DNA testing or EPDs. There is no way that could ever happen. It must be a fable from a child's book!

What I have learned the most: two places in KY to not buy cattle.

This is the same thing I learned! :cboy:

 

[Caustic Burno]

Overall I do not see it as representing us well as a group IMO.

That can be said of many threads. It is contingent on your attitude, values, and philosophy.

You have control issues, you have no clue when to quit running up and down the picket fence with the stick.

 

[Ky hills]

Overall I do not see it as representing us well as a group IMO.

I agree, my interpretation is that each of us involved in the cattle industry are ambassadors for that business. There are many folks who have no first hand or even second hand knowledge of farming or cattle raising. They are very susceptible to buying into misinformation, and there are folks more than willing to capitalize on that. In my humble opinion we as cattle producers regardless of size or segment of the industry need to be on the same side we don't need division or diversions.

 

[Bestoutwest]

Here's what I've learned from this thread, previous threads, and personal research:

There's good cattle to be had for big money. There's great cattle to be had for less money than that good animal. And there's good animals to be had for what some would consider to be too little money, meaning the animal must be junk. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If the customer thinks the product has enough value for the money spent, then they're a satisfied customer and the seller has done their job.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Free bulls? How about a new "free" John Deere tractor or some "free" hay, or how about some "free" vet services. You know, just to help a good ole boy out.

We haven't had jack sh.t given to us 'free" at Branded except for the endless amount of bottles and trash that the locals toss out on our frontage and my neighbors frontage every day.

At this point in the thread, I'm not backing down an inch on any comment. Why apologize for the truth. I hear the local producers talk cattle at the feed store and they are in the dark ages.

I don't give a rats azz if you use purebred Hereford, purebred Simmental, or whatever. Don't ever buy a Angus sire, I don't care, but if you are going to be in the cattle business it would be nice if you make an attempt not to ruin it for others here in Kentucky that do read, study, and strive to improve year after year. I'm sick of hearing hard luck stories when the beef industry future is so bright and people that I am around want to set it back 20-30 years.

Ebenezer, I think you know the difference between good cattle husbandry and using your cattle as unattended lawnmowers as someone said earlier. I know for a fact that their are cattle here in the state in high numbers at that, which you probably wouldn't let step foot on your farm. Don't play the "I sympathize with you fellow Kentuckians" card. Only a truly ignorant person would think they can learn all that is possible from never leaving their county or never taking advice outside of what they can glean at the feed store gossip hour.

As for newbies to farming, I invite anyone on this thread that is trashing our operation to show us your Historic Angus Award? And for Kentucky producers, Branded was sent an award from the Kentucky State House of Representatives for our operation as well. Our farm last changed hands in 1840 and our land was where the charter for Flemingsburg was signed. The original 1800's road from Mt. Sterling to Flemingsburg was on our land, and is still there to this day. Yet with all that, which in the end doesn't mean much, I'm told that I'm the outsider? C'mon! I hear that bull often around here from people that contribute virtually nothing to our local economy, except the trash they throw out their window.

I know there is mud, my cattle are buried deep in it daily, but the difference that Ron and others are talking about is that they are healthy, they are fed. I watch them closely for injury or illness. Every calf born is important and is treated so. I think it would be a good thing if a large percentage of cattle producers in Kentucky folded, and turned their land into hay production. This business is only going to become more expensive with higher barriers to entry, mark my word, starving your cattle is akin to keeping your electric and water off to save money. Don't starve your cattle, sell them and quit instead, it's the right thing to do. You will be relieved. Of course this message is for those that know you are in a bad position right now. Others will hold on until they are forced to sell. Let this winter repeat itself a few more times, then it's game over. This business is consolidating at a rapid pace and producers running half azz operations don't even see what's coming. I spoke with the owner of a large multi county feed store and mill a couple years ago about this and he tried to stay positive, but he couldn't deny that harder times are on the way for the little guy, not so much for the large producer who has economy of scale to protect him.

Some have implied that if I don't sell bulls I fail here at Branded, and it feels as if they hope that's the case. I understand and have demonstrated that I can use sexed semen to generate heifers all day long, and they sell with ease. As for bulls, I would rather steer nearly everything versus let a high quality SAV or Connealy grandson of an AI sire fall into the hands of a producer that will abuse and starve them. Yes, I said that folks. It would be far better to make sure it has a short high quality life, rather than one of misery.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

https://www.google.com/search?q=the+cheetah+and+dog+race&client=safari&hl=en-us&prmd=ivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiIjPma6srgAhUrSN8KHYdBBmYQ_AUoAXoECAoQAQ&biw=768&bih=960#imgrc=8MeuIyBYqIbXOM

 

[True Grit Farms]

Sounds like we all should bow down to Branded farms.

 

[Bright Raven]

Branded raised an issue that I don't remember being discussed. That is the issue of the seller having standards for whom he will sell to. That is something that just came home to me in the last week. It relates to 2 heifers I sold last fall under the CAIP program.

 

[NEFarmwife]

As for newbies to farming, I invite anyone on this thread that is trashing our operation to show us your Historic Angus Award? And for Kentucky producers, Branded was sent an award from the Kentucky State House of Representatives for our operation as well. Our farm last changed hands in 1840 and our land was where the charter for Flemingsburg was signed. The original 1800's road from Mt. Sterling to Flemingsburg was on our land, and is still there to this day. Yet with all that, which in the end doesn't mean much, I'm told that I'm the outsider? C'mon! I hear that bull often around here from people that contribute virtually nothing to our local economy, except the trash they throw out their window.

Kentucky Family Honored for Historic Angus Herd

************* has been home to Angus cattle for more than 50 years.



In 1967, James E. Doran and his wife Jane, Flemingsburg, Kentucky, purchased their first registered Angus heifers. This was the official beginning of ************* and the family's registered Angus herd, which is still in operation 51 years later.

The land that the Doran's raise their cattle on was purchased before the Civil War in 1840 and has remained in the same direct family ever since.

"When it came to choosing purebred cattle, Angus was the only choice for our ranch," Doran said. "With proven success and heritage as a breed, we felt Angus would one day lead the beef industry."

They purchased their first registered Angus heifers from Gordon Downing, a banker and Angus breeder, and their first registered bull from Charles Cannon, Stone Gate Farm.

James was one of the first breeders to AI in his area, and over the years ************* has evolved into a strictly AI-bred herd with no herd bulls, breeding 40 cows a year.

The 52-head herd is still managed by James and Jane to this day.

Visit www.angus.org for more information on the Historic Angus Herd Award and to view a list of awarded members since the program began in 1988.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That bolded statement interests me since you have herd bulls and girls who've been cleaned up by them via previous statements you've made on the board.

 

[NEFarmwife]

Sounds like we all should bow down to Branded farms.

You should have seen him "touting" his excellent calf on the Square B Ranch page. "The FIRST ONE in Kentucky and another on the way from my super great cow"... I didn't even have to read the sig line to know who the pic was from. I'm surprised I could have anyway, my eyes were rolling like a teenage girl.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I don't think I'm the best, it sure didn't feel like the best last night when I was walking around in mud a foot deep. Or when I look at my fields and they appear as if a disc harrow has been used on them.

I'm working just like everyone else in this wretched weather, I'm trying to keep my cattle healthy, that's all.

Look, take it anyway you want, get upset at me, but In 5-10 years we can revisit my comments and see if my call on the industry was correct. At least I won't be a monday morning quarterback. I think it will get a lot tougher for Kentucky cattle. The small producer is finished unless they make some drastic changes. I stand by that. This is gut check time. The weather is only a small part of the bigger problem here.

Nationally we have some work to do as well. Sonny Perdue and even the locals here are worried about fake meat, that's a complete joke, they should be a lot more worried about our trade policy, it's causing immediate and acute pain in the here and now. Once a country switches to buying beef from Canada or Australia they probably won't switch back quickly to the U.S. once the tussle is resolved.

I heard some locals talking about the fake meat problem, that as they raise cattle that would be lucky to grade choice. Fake meat is the least of their worries, but it makes for some great conversation and something to fear monger about.

 

[CattleMan1920]

That bolded statement interests me since you have herd bulls and girls who've been cleaned up by them via previous statements you've made on the board.

After nearly 100 inches in rain over the past rolling 12 months, AI'ng the herd has become very difficult. We do have 36 settled right now as we speak via AI, oh we didn't use any shots of any kind to pull that off.

Why do you always pounce like you discovered some little nugget to call me out on?

Dump the amount of rain we have had on your place and I assure you that your program would be turned upside down. Now if you could maintain almost all of your cattle AI'd at that point, then maybe I would give you a hand clap