Purebred Angus bulls without papers

[CattleMan1920]

Go to Boyd's sale this year or watch the sale report, seriously doubt it will be locals bidding.

In my county at least, it's an afterthought, the only thing that matters is the number of animals walking in the field and if they can get enough weight on to bring in a few shekels. They could care less about the cattle, or quality, otherwise they would not be feeding out moldy hay to them and expecting a miracle.

Today I spoke with a commercial producer in my county for some advice on a few things, so I do listen to commercial guys as well, but the ones that are pros. Take his hay for example, he wraps everything and usually has double what he needs in case of a winter like the one we had this year or a drought. He is the type of guy that is overprepared, of course he's been doing it for 30 years. Those type of producers are NOT the ones I speak poorly of on here. Those are the ones I admire. Again, if you are doing things well, there is no reason to get huffy with me.

Oh sh...t, I'm wound up again, must put phone down.

Ok so he wraps his hay. What else does he do with it to make it superior. Fertilize according to soil sample and fertilize on time. Cut on time, bale on time, store inside. If not it's just wrapped junk. If you purchased it would he allow you to test it yourself before committing to buy?? Just curious.

I don't buy hay from him, he feeds it all through from what I know, but considering that he has successfully managed a herd of around 1000 commercial for a little over 30 years, I think he figured out the right way to feed. I'm pretty sure he tests the hay because I was asking him about whether he would recommend a Vermeer or Anderson wrapper, since I'm in the market for one, and he was talking to me about testing during that conversation. He also advised the place where I buy feed on the ingredients of a mix that I use. See I do listen to commercial guys after all.

I think it's orchard grass or timothy and alfalfa. He definitely does soil tests and fertilizes, or I think the local co-op does it all for him.

I never said he has "superior hay" I said his hay was all wrapped and he wasn't feeding out weeds or moldy hay. It' probably not as good as what I use, but I'm sure it's plenty good enough to get the job done.

I really don't care what anyone feeds, it doesn't affect me directly, but I will say this, some of the hay that I see going back and forth down the roads around here, looks like it should be used for compost, not feed.

 

[kentuckyguy]

I have to agree with Branded on the average cattle producer in Ky

I have some neighbors who raise some really nice Angus and Hereford bulls from good maternal lines mainly using AI sires. They have some really nice animals but generally sell them for around $15-1800 because that's all the market here will sustain.

In my opinion there's not a lot of profit in a 12-15 month old bull at $1500. By the time you figure their cost of breeding the cow AI, registering the bull, doing a BSE, and transferring the animal to the new owner.

Recently they have been leasing bulls for 2-3 months which works out better because most wont even pay the $1500

There are some good cattle producers around me but for the most part they are used as a bush hog. No uniformity in the cow herd, whatever they can buy at 6-8 months old that still has nuts turned in with the cows. No vaccination, worming, or goals other than too have a calf to sell once a year.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this because I believe the cattle are just not a priority to most of them. At the end of the day you can have the best bulls on 4 legs but if nobody is willing to pay the high price for them they are just hamburger.

 

[Ebenezer]

then how do you measure performance/improvement as a result of your cross?

Female function if retained and buyer acceptance and profit if sold.

You want to spend a long, long time seeing who the winners are, or use tools to reduce that time frame?

OK, I'll get some advice. How many generations do you advance (also interested in your total number of generations that YOU have produced so I can be sure that you know what you are talking about) with testing versus not testing. Do you jump 2 years quicker per 5 years or what? Can you prove that you are making those quicker advances?

Here's the scoop. Use the top semen. Two generations give you 75% improved genetics. Three generations give you 87.5% improved genetics. If most long term Angus herds have been using AI for 10+ years and are 5 generations into superior AI bulls for 96.97% improved genetics, why is there still sort in their cattle? Not picking on Gizmo but she has been honestly posting for years. Donor cows, top AI bulls, selected home raised stock and she told you just a day or so ago that they still steers 50%+ of the annual bull crop. Her situation is not unusual. She is being honest and progressive.

You are a SAV fan. That's fine with me. What are their bloodlines based on? Newest of bloodlines based on DNA? Rito 707, Sitz Traveler 8180, Bushwhacker, EXT, Paxton, In Focus, Gridmaker, 598, Tracker, ... all not so new. Some pretty old. Why do they not go to DNA testing to jump ahead by light years?

Honest questions.

 

[bigbluegrass]

What really gets under my skin in this and other recent threads is that several members who sell registered bulls feel the need to run down commercial cattle operations, especially in KY. But, after giving it some thought, I realized that apparently commercial cattle operations in KY are selling more breeding stock than the registered cattle operations (at least from what I have read on here). :idea: Maybe the registered bull sellers should try to figure out why they are getting beat in sales, rather than run this aggressive smear campaign

Ask yourself, would the majority of bulls in Kentucky even begin to hold their own at the Midland test? I seriously doubt it.

I know there are serious commercial producers in Kentucky, but the majority are a LONG WAY from quality cattle or else the prices would reflect it.

Either that, or the Barbers are picking off everyone in site and making a huge arbitrage out west. Maybe both.

First of all, Midland could not test the majority of bulls in Kentucky. It says on their website they test about 1100 purebred bulls. 1100 bulls couldn't breed a fraction of the cows in the state. Secondly, the Midland test is a proof test for serious bull breeders. A test like that is what separates the EPDs from the real world performance. It separates the "Expected" from the actual. It gives you some bragging rights and maybe allows you to justify a higher cost for your genetics.

Would you expect the majority of bulls used in the state to be required to go through the Midland Bull test? I seriously doubt that is even reasonable.

Have you figured out why you are getting beat in sales by commercial producers? You know those inferior bulls with no papers or EPDs don't qualify for CAIP, so that sure isn't it. op:

 

[CattleMan1920]

Considering that the first Angus heifers arrived on our farm in 1967, we have a few generations in the herd. We also have around 10 cows that are over 13 years old, they have had calves, and their calves have had calves and so on. We don't linebreed here, for many years we used bulls from Stone Gate, bulls that were usually sired by AI or were from breeders out West, but for several years it's been almost entirely AI. We also AI'd in the early 70's to Wye sires, and their descendants are in the herd.

I understand that you see HD50k or Angus source as complete nonsense. It's that crazy science stuff, it can't possibly be as accurate as your eye. A high density DNA test will never pinhook like you can. I get it...not really...I couldn't imagine not using it in this day and age. It reveals a lot, and some people aren't comfortable with that, I see it as room for improvement, it is what it is, and if your animal needs improvement, back to the drawing board.

The reason I like to use AI versus linebreeding my whole herd is mostly because I think linebreeding is a tool that should be used carefully if not sparingly. Unless you are an expert which maybe you are, who knows?

I've noticed over the past few years that not only do my AI calves look better from a phenotype standpoint, but they have improved EPD's, am I missing something? they almost always are an improvement over the past generation. I think they call it evolution.

Also, just because someone else cuts half their calf crop does not mean I should do it. I think it would not serve me well to have an arbitrary number or goal "cut half the bulls, no matter what, it must be half" I do plan on cutting most if not all the non AI calves going forward, selling a non AI bull is not worth the hassle involved. This thread was started to see if selling cheap bulls made sense, and I heard everyone loud and clear on CT. NO WAY IN H..LL does it make sense over the long haul.

I have taken one bit of advice, from True Grit, get them in a test. I'm making arrangements to send my first group to Midland as soon as they will accept them, and as many as they will accept which will be around 5 from my conversation with them. That should settle the score on whether my cattle have any merit. I might add that I was also considering putting at least one homegrown bull out of the herd sire you see me post about on here, he's a Stone Gate bull from an Apex Angus sire, in order to see how he will perform against the AI sires. I'm making a premature bet that he will not gain as well in comparison to my AI sires, but at least we will get data and see. A couple of his sons have a 3.8 pound per day rate of gain, but I think that is only because their low input genetics are holding them back.

I thought I was being honest and progressive as well by DNA testing everything, proving parentage, then breeding those AI daughters back AI, again and again. I see progress as though EPD's begin to climb higher and higher and the calves look better and better.

As for SAV, I could have easily purchased the Emulation XXP semen and tried to create my own version of Elation, but I wanted SAV's maternal genetics in my animals. I couldn't readily purchase that unless through the semen.

Gizmom is not my competition, why are you trying to set it up like that.

Oh, one more thing Eddie Draper at Wye told me that he would strongly advise me NOT to breed to some of the very old Wye bulls if I could get my hands on the semen and make it work, he told me that he thought I would be setting my herd back in a big way. My ABS rep, who I trust, said he did something similar as an experiment with poor results. I will leave breeding to the older bulls like SAV did or linebreeding to the pros, I'm not there yet in my knowledge, and taking a top AI sire and breeding to a good cow has worked well for me, why change?

 

[CattleMan1920]

What really gets under my skin in this and other recent threads is that several members who sell registered bulls feel the need to run down commercial cattle operations, especially in KY. But, after giving it some thought, I realized that apparently commercial cattle operations in KY are selling more breeding stock than the registered cattle operations (at least from what I have read on here). :idea: Maybe the registered bull sellers should try to figure out why they are getting beat in sales, rather than run this aggressive smear campaign

Have you figured out why you are getting beat in sales by commercial producers? You know those inferior bulls with no papers or EPDs don't qualify for CAIP, so that sure isn't it. op:

I thought Midland would let you guys know if my bulls have any merit. They take the bulls..t out of the equation. As far as I'm concerned, if I WERE to have 5 bulls that end up in the top of the Midland test, I doubt there would be much left to say about my operation then, would there? Who knows, they might end up very high, or very low, but at least I will know where I stand.

As for being outsold, my bulls always end up selling, but I would say if anything, people don't really care much about the bulls as much as the name. If their Dad or Granddad bought somewhere, that's where they will buy. If an operation had a screw claw problem, but Grandaddy bought there, they don't care, it must be good. That's the truth.

There are a ton of reasons why I use AI and don't really care to sell homegrown bulls, but one of the most compelling is this, when I tell my clients what's on the way, they are always more interested in the AI sire, or when I get calls, they ask "what do you have from AI?" The path of least resistance is to sell what people are interested in most, not try to sell them something that might have merit, but no name, even with papers and genomic tests a Stone Gate son will never be as desirable as a Hoover Dam son or Basin Payweight 1682 son. Go to any Stone Gate sale over the years and if an AI sired bull enters the ring, it always bids higher than the grandsons and great grandsons of top sires.

 

[Bright Raven]

Have you figured out why you are getting beat in sales by commercial producers? You know those inferior bulls with no papers or EPDs don't qualify for CAIP, so that sure isn't it. op:

How are you?

I am very fortunate not to be in the Angus business. What hurts small Angus seedstock producers in Kentucky is the price structure.

Kentuckyguy confirmed what Branded and I have said repeatedly and everyone wants to take it as an insult - but the fact remains, 50 % of the black hided commercial cattle producers search for cheap "black bulls". The price ranges from $1500 to $1800. A bonafide seedstock producer cannot survive trying to compete with those prices.

 

[bigbluegrass]

My issue remains: I don't see why there is the need to run down commercial cattle operations, especially in KY. I despise a man who needs to push the small commercial cattle producers down to raise himself up. It just isn't right. If you have a problem with Ky cattle producers, you need to talk to them about it and not blab it all over the internet. There are a lot of good registered and commercial cattle producers in the state. They don't need you running your mouth about the worst producers you have ever met.

Raven, I think you are worse than Branded on this. You posted some pictures of some awful conditions your neighbors cattle were in. Why? You claim to look out for the little man. That poor man whose cattle you posted pictures of, what about him? You can't find a dry place outside. I sure wouldn't post pictures online of the worst areas my cattle are living right now, would you?

As far as not being able to sell a bull for $1500-$1800 and make a profit, I don't feel too bad for you. You guys feed so much and don't care about the bottom line until it comes time to sell your bulls. Then you need more money. Must be nice to be able to bump the price up to cover your costs. Besides, y'all have CAIP to help sell those bulls.

 

[Bright Raven]

My issue remains: I don't see why there is the need to run down commercial cattle operations, especially in KY. I despise a man who needs to push the small commercial cattle producers down to raise himself up. It just isn't right. If you have a problem with Ky cattle producers, you need to talk to them about it and not blab it all over the internet. There are a lot of good registered and commercial cattle producers in the state. They don't need you running your mouth about the worst producers you have ever met.

Raven, I think you are worse than Branded on this. You posted some pictures of some awful conditions your neighbors cattle were in. Why? You claim to look out for the little man. That poor man whose cattle you posted pictures of, what about him? You can't find a dry place outside. I sure wouldn't post pictures online of the worst areas my cattle are living right now, would you?

As far as not being able to sell a bull for $1500-$1800 and make a profit, I don't feel too bad for you. You guys feed so much and don't care about the bottom line until it comes time to sell your bulls. Then you need more money. Must be nice to be able to bump the price up to cover your costs. Besides, y'all have CAIP to help sell those bulls.

I just simply disagree with you. To me it is not personal. There is a responsibility that goes with animal husbandry. Most of these producers do it as a hobby. If they cannot properly care for their livestock, they are wrong to continue. Leaving animals to die cannot be excused. Simple as that!

I would post pictures of where my cows are. They are laying on dry hay right now. It has been a challenge and some producers are losing cows and calves.

 

[Blue Dawg]

Take you a little ride through the country, I know conditions are bad but there's a lot of people around here that shouldn't have cattle, all they're doing is playing. The pastures looks so bad because they were overgrazed before we even got the bad weather, they just care about how many is walking around in the field. They feed crap hay, nothing but weeds and bull thistle, might as well be feeding them sawdust, be more palatable. Year after year there's certain ones running around looking for hay, they complain more about the buzzards and coyotes than anything, like they're going to run them out of business. It just makes it look bad on the good people like most on this board, and it gets in to all of our pockets.

 

[Bright Raven]

Take you a little ride through the country, I know conditions are bad but there's a lot of people around here that shouldn't have cattle, all they're doing is playing. The pastures looks so bad because they were overgrazed before we even got the bad weather, they just care about how many is walking around in the field. They feed crap hay, nothing but weeds and bull thistle, might as well be feeding them sawdust, be more palatable. Year after year there's certain ones running around looking for hay, they complain more about the buzzards and coyotes than anything, like they're going to run them out of business. It just makes it look bad on the good people like most on this board, and it gets in to all of our pockets.

We all know what is going on. The UK Extension Agents know the score. I am not going to describe it blow by blow because it clearly upsets folks like Bigbluegrass.

What I don't understand is why some of these folks don't throw in the towel. They try to take care of 20 to 30 head of cows and work a fulltime job. They don't have the time to take care of the cattle under ideal weather let alone the weather we have experienced over the last year. As you say, they complain about the entire vocation, yet they keep doing what they seem to despise.

 

[Blue Dawg]

Take you a little ride through the country, I know conditions are bad but there's a lot of people around here that shouldn't have cattle, all they're doing is playing. The pastures looks so bad because they were overgrazed before we even got the bad weather, they just care about how many is walking around in the field. They feed crap hay, nothing but weeds and bull thistle, might as well be feeding them sawdust, be more palatable. Year after year there's certain ones running around looking for hay, they complain more about the buzzards and coyotes than anything, like they're going to run them out of business. It just makes it look bad on the good people like most on this board, and it gets in to all of our pockets.

We all know what is going on. The UK Extension Agents know the score. I am not going to describe it blow by blow because it clearly upsets folks like Bigbluegrass.

What I don't understand is why some of these folks don't throw in the towel. They try to take care of 20 to 30 head of cows and work a fulltime job. They don't have the time to take care of the cattle under ideal weather let alone the weather we have experienced over the last year. As you say, they complain about the entire vocation, yet they keep doing what they seem to despise.

Please tell me do the stockyards have big sales, lots of cattle? Because it doesn't seem like I see as many cattle going to market, sales used to be big when I was a boy.

 

[Bright Raven]

Take you a little ride through the country, I know conditions are bad but there's a lot of people around here that shouldn't have cattle, all they're doing is playing. The pastures looks so bad because they were overgrazed before we even got the bad weather, they just care about how many is walking around in the field. They feed crap hay, nothing but weeds and bull thistle, might as well be feeding them sawdust, be more palatable. Year after year there's certain ones running around looking for hay, they complain more about the buzzards and coyotes than anything, like they're going to run them out of business. It just makes it look bad on the good people like most on this board, and it gets in to all of our pockets.

We all know what is going on. The UK Extension Agents know the score. I am not going to describe it blow by blow because it clearly upsets folks like Bigbluegrass.

What I don't understand is why some of these folks don't throw in the towel. They try to take care of 20 to 30 head of cows and work a fulltime job. They don't have the time to take care of the cattle under ideal weather let alone the weather we have experienced over the last year. As you say, they complain about the entire vocation, yet they keep doing what they seem to despise.

Please tell me do the stockyards have big sales, lots of cattle? Because it doesn't seem like I see as many cattle going to market, sales used to be big when I was a boy.

Maysville, Paris, Mt Sterling, etc all have good volume.

 

[bse]

Ill say this, I get lucky to see alot of country now and then. In Southern KY they have some nice cattle you boys up north is doing something wrong(kidding)
In 2007 I ran out of hay drought long winter,swore that wouldnt happen again, from that point on if i figured on 300 rolls I put up 450 to always have enough, good planning right? well guess what ive got enough to go to March 20th then guess what im out, did I plan poorly or has mother nature dealt us all a bad hand? All im saying is this year has been hard on TN and KY and im sure lots of other places, so id not judge anyones operation unless i truly knew they just didnt care, I dont know anyone like that.
The good news is my claves will go on feed at the end of the week, heck maybe I will wean a 900lb calf!!! lol

 

[Blue Dawg]

Ill say this, I get lucky to see alot of country now and then. In Southern KY they have some nice cattle you boys up north is doing something wrong(kidding)
In 2007 I ran out of hay drought long winter,swore that wouldnt happen again, from that point on if i figured on 300 rolls I put up 450 to always have enough, good planning right? well guess what ive got enough to go to March 20th then guess what im out, did I plan poorly or has mother nature dealt us all a bad hand? All im saying is this year has been hard on TN and KY and im sure lots of other places, so id not judge anyones operation unless i truly knew they just didnt care, I dont know anyone like that.
The good news is my claves will go on feed at the end of the week, heck maybe I will wean a 900lb calf!!! lol

No worries, possums were out doing their thing early this time so it will be good by March 20th. Hope you wean the biggest calf ever.

 

[Bright Raven]

Ill say this, I get lucky to see alot of country now and then. In Southern KY they have some nice cattle you boys up north is doing something wrong(kidding)
In 2007 I ran out of hay drought long winter,swore that wouldnt happen again, from that point on if i figured on 300 rolls I put up 450 to always have enough, good planning right? well guess what ive got enough to go to March 20th then guess what im out, did I plan poorly or has mother nature dealt us all a bad hand? All im saying is this year has been hard on TN and KY and im sure lots of other places, so id not judge anyones operation unless i truly knew they just didnt care, I dont know anyone like that.
The good news is my claves will go on feed at the end of the week, heck maybe I will wean a 900lb calf!!! lol

No worries, possums were out doing their thing early this time so it will be good by March 20th. Hope you wean the biggest calf ever.

What state are you in?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

We caught a possum in a live trap yesterday!! Have it set for coons. Is that a good sign?

 

[Blue Dawg]

We caught a possum in a live trap yesterday!! Have it set for coons. Is that a good sign?

Yes , sign you don't no how to trap.

This has been a very interesting thread , I don't want to screw it up.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

We caught a possum in a live trap yesterday!! Have it set for coons. Is that a good sign?

Yes , sign you don't no how to trap.

This has been a very interesting thread , I don't want to screw it up.

:lol: :lol:

 

[Ebenezer]

Considering that the first Angus heifers arrived on our farm in 1967, we have a few generations in the herd. We also have around 10 cows that are over 13 years old, they have had calves, and their calves have had calves and so on. We don't linebreed here, for many years we used bulls from Stone Gate, bulls that were usually sired by AI or were from breeders out West, but for several years it's been almost entirely AI. We also AI'd in the early 70's to Wye sires, and their descendants are in the herd.

I understand that you see HD50k or Angus source as complete nonsense. It's that crazy science stuff, it can't possibly be as accurate as your eye. A high density DNA test will never pinhook like you can. I get it...not really...I couldn't imagine not using it in this day and age. It reveals a lot, and some people aren't comfortable with that, I see it as room for improvement, it is what it is, and if your animal needs improvement, back to the drawing board.

The reason I like to use AI versus linebreeding my whole herd is mostly because I think linebreeding is a tool that should be used carefully if not sparingly. Unless you are an expert which maybe you are, who knows?

I've noticed over the past few years that not only do my AI calves look better from a phenotype standpoint, but they have improved EPD's, am I missing something? they almost always are an improvement over the past generation. I think they call it evolution.

Also, just because someone else cuts half their calf crop does not mean I should do it. I think it would not serve me well to have an arbitrary number or goal "cut half the bulls, no matter what, it must be half" I do plan on cutting most if not all the non AI calves going forward, selling a non AI bull is not worth the hassle involved. This thread was started to see if selling cheap bulls made sense, and I heard everyone loud and clear on CT. NO WAY IN H..LL does it make sense over the long haul.

I have taken one bit of advice, from True Grit, get them in a test. I'm making arrangements to send my first group to Midland as soon as they will accept them, and as many as they will accept which will be around 5 from my conversation with them. That should settle the score on whether my cattle have any merit. I might add that I was also considering putting at least one homegrown bull out of the herd sire you see me post about on here, he's a Stone Gate bull from an Apex Angus sire, in order to see how he will perform against the AI sires. I'm making a premature bet that he will not gain as well in comparison to my AI sires, but at least we will get data and see. A couple of his sons have a 3.8 pound per day rate of gain, but I think that is only because their low input genetics are holding them back.

I thought I was being honest and progressive as well by DNA testing everything, proving parentage, then breeding those AI daughters back AI, again and again. I see progress as though EPD's begin to climb higher and higher and the calves look better and better.

As for SAV, I could have easily purchased the Emulation XXP semen and tried to create my own version of Elation, but I wanted SAV's maternal genetics in my animals. I couldn't readily purchase that unless through the semen.

Gizmom is not my competition, why are you trying to set it up like that.

Oh, one more thing Eddie Draper at Wye told me that he would strongly advise me NOT to breed to some of the very old Wye bulls if I could get my hands on the semen and make it work, he told me that he thought I would be setting my herd back in a big way. My ABS rep, who I trust, said he did something similar as an experiment with poor results. I will leave breeding to the older bulls like SAV did or linebreeding to the pros, I'm not there yet in my knowledge, and taking a top AI sire and breeding to a good cow has worked well for me, why change?

OK I get the negative opinions of me and the false assumptions (sign of poor character according to your support staff, Ron), the bait and switch of creating enemies and competition for you, bring in Wye or the semen salesman side note.... Smoke screens and decoy tactics don't cut it.

Now, tell me the scientific and modern answers. Don't avoid the technical details if you think or assume I have a poor IQ to go along with my collection of stone man cave wall paintings of feral cattle. :shock: Give it to me straight without the commentary and sales pitch. How much quicker, how much better, how to change old genes to new genes? It has to be real answers for it to be so useful. What are the answers?