Purebred Angus bulls without papers

[sim.-ang.king]

Never knew questioning, or disagreeing with someone on an open forum was considered disliking someone, or not wanting them to post.

Shouldn't be surprised I guess, living in today's world of feels.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Do you all not understand that sometimes :
1. It is who you buy from and not what you buy?

2. Sometimes the check is never written and the embryos are never exchanged.

3. Believe it or not sometimes it is you buy this for $x and I will buy something from you for $X.

I guess I'm not part of the "in crowd" because I don't care about that bulls..t

The only thing that floats my boat is pure competition, the pedigree, weights, etc.

I want to know everything I can about a certain sire or dam and then figure out how to beat it. You could say I'm a glutton for punishment, but that's what keeps me fired up. It has no finish line which is why it's so fulfilling.

If other breeders want to involve themselves in funny business, that's their business not mine.

 

[Bright Raven]

Do you all not understand that sometimes :
1. It is who you buy from and not what you buy?

2. Sometimes the check is never written and the embryos are never exchanged.

3. Believe it or not sometimes it is you buy this for $x and I will buy something from you for $X.

If you say that happens, you certainly must know. On the flip side, I know folks who put up their bids and send in their check and get their embryos shipped.

I am green at it. I did it once. Paid my money and took my shot. Guy sent my 3 embryos,

 

[jscunn]

Come on Ron dont be naive, never said it happened everytime. Of course most of the time it happens the right way, and at most places it happens straight up all the time. I cant believe you will attempt to call me out for that and you wont call BS on someone who talked about owning 4 cows with $750,000 per year income. Part of the package is who you buy it from.. that is why it was listed first... WOW

 

[Bright Raven]

Come on Ron dont be naive, never said it happened everytime. Of course most of the time it happens the right way, and at most places it happens straight up all the time. I cant believe you will attempt to call me out for that and you wont call BS on someone who talked about owning 4 cows with $750,000 per year income. Part of the package is who you buy it from.. that is why it was listed first... WOW

Lol. I was not calling you out. I am a runner, not a fighter. Lol

I didn't say $750,000 per year. I saw a flush cow sell at Boyd's this past year. It was $90,000 if I remember. I was wondering how she would pay that back. It would take about 6 flushes a year over about 4 years. Not something that I would want to invest in. But I guess it could pencil out.

 

[gizmom]

I have a burning question... Where are ranches like Schaff getting their improved genetics from? Thin air?

Nesi

Schaff is doing exactly what all of us should be doing and that is improving each generation' in other words they are making their own improved genetics. Your not a purebred operation but you have developed a pretty consistent herd, how did you accomplish that? Take a look at some of the Schaff sires, study the pedigrees. For example SAV Quarterback you will see a lot of SAV prefix cattle in the pedigree. You will also see consistency across the herd with regard to pedigree. I have said this before but it is worth repeating. Find the genetic lines that blend well in your herd and your environment, then stick with those genetic lines.
We have purchased donors, and the ones we purchased had the genetic lines you will find throughout our herd. We have been doing a lot of flushing but we have not been selling embryos. The boss accuses me of having Indian cattle, you know in India they are sacred lol! I do find it hard to let one of our ET females leave, but then again I have several cows that I just can't let a heifer out of them go.

Gizmom

 

[Midtenn]

You know what I'd like to see as a test? A herd of cattle with half bred to a bull or two from each of you and compare the calves... A bull's value is in his offspring really, not in how big he can get. I've noticed in my herd that some of the thinner, bonier looking cows have the meatier looking calves (I've seen this in several full sisters bred to the same bulls)

That's because she is a great mother. A bad momma cow will take care of herself first then let the calf get what's left. Those thin cows as long as they breed back (some don't) are money makers.

I'm talking about build, not fatness, they all raise heavy calves, it just seems like the kinda framy cows have the meaty calves
Here are two full sisters, I like the one on the right better, and she's raised the biggest calf of the herd, but the sister (1 year younger) has the calves that make you want to cut a steak out of them

Ah I missed the key word "meatier" in your post. I see what you mean now. However I can't say I've ever noticed that in my herd.

 

[gcreekrch]

I have a burning question... Where are ranches like Schaff getting their improved genetics from? Thin air?

Nesi

Schaff is doing exactly what all of us should be doing and that is improving each generation' in other words they are making their own improved genetics. Your not a purebred operation but you have developed a pretty consistent herd, how did you accomplish that? Take a look at some of the Schaff sires, study the pedigrees. For example SAV Quarterback you will see a lot of SAV prefix cattle in the pedigree. You will also see consistency across the herd with regard to pedigree. I have said this before but it is worth repeating. Find the genetic lines that blend well in your herd and your environment, then stick with those genetic lines.
We have purchased donors, and the ones we purchased had the genetic lines you will find throughout our herd. We have been doing a lot of flushing but we have not been selling embryos. The boss accuses me of having Indian cattle, you know in India they are sacred lol! I do find it hard to let one of our ET females leave, but then again I have several cows that I just can't let a heifer out of them go.

Gizmom

Great observation Gizmom. I have preached to deaf ears for decades that the only way to consistency is consistency itself.

You cannot produce consistency by breeding 30 cows to 25 different sires. You will get there faster by using one sire for 3 years and then breeding those daughters to the next sire for another 3 years. Make sure they are good ones and build your own consistency! A couple generations and you should be line breeding your own cattle.

 

[gcreekrch]

This topic has done one thing. And Branded said it himself. It's been FREE promotion of his cattle. He's a master at manipulating people for his benefit.

That's pretty harsh.

Didn't mean to offend so many people on here. Nobody has handled me in the cattle business with kid gloves and I thought topics could be discussed without a fight. If I inadvertently hurt anyone's feelings, my apologies. That was not my intention.

I'm not sure that's really harsh. You came on here extolling the virtues of a 2 y/o bull pretty loudly. When others objected that he might be a good bull, but not worth $1.5M at 2, you fired back harshly. In not so many words, calling folks dumb for not seeing the value in $80/straws on an unproven bull when there's a ton of straw for a fraction of that price on "proven" bulls with consistent progeny trends.

With this thread you started out by "asking" for opinions on whether or not you should sell unregistered bulls. Now, that in itself seems innocuous, but then you start talking about how your hay is so good that it makes your cows competitive with the horses in the Derby, and how that your vets went to Auburn (big whoop, my vets went to college, too), it becomes pretty off-putting and clear how you feel about most other operations.

Not everyone on here sees the value of running registered, or using the next "best" thing. Not everyone sees the value of doing things the same way that others do it. You've insinuated that unless you're using such-and-such genetics, or that if you're using your own bulls you're doing it incorrectly.

I'll finish with this. I've seen a lot of cattle on here over the years. Mr. Victor has great cattle. There's a Murray Grey breeder that has drool worth cattle. Bright Raven has fantastic cattle. Nesi's herd of mongrels (sorry, buddy :lol: ) are great looking. There's several here that do strictly commercial that have great looking cattle. Randi in Canada, who has a pretty large commercial herd, has probably some of the best cattle I've ever seen. There's another on here that BR posts pictures for that are as solid a bovine as I've seen anywhere else. I've never seen any of yours.

Thank you!

 

[Bright Raven]

That's pretty harsh.

Didn't mean to offend so many people on here. Nobody has handled me in the cattle business with kid gloves and I thought topics could be discussed without a fight. If I inadvertently hurt anyone's feelings, my apologies. That was not my intention.

I'm not sure that's really harsh. You came on here extolling the virtues of a 2 y/o bull pretty loudly. When others objected that he might be a good bull, but not worth $1.5M at 2, you fired back harshly. In not so many words, calling folks dumb for not seeing the value in $80/straws on an unproven bull when there's a ton of straw for a fraction of that price on "proven" bulls with consistent progeny trends.

With this thread you started out by "asking" for opinions on whether or not you should sell unregistered bulls. Now, that in itself seems innocuous, but then you start talking about how your hay is so good that it makes your cows competitive with the horses in the Derby, and how that your vets went to Auburn (big whoop, my vets went to college, too), it becomes pretty off-putting and clear how you feel about most other operations.

Not everyone on here sees the value of running registered, or using the next "best" thing. Not everyone sees the value of doing things the same way that others do it. You've insinuated that unless you're using such-and-such genetics, or that if you're using your own bulls you're doing it incorrectly.

I'll finish with this. I've seen a lot of cattle on here over the years. Mr. Victor has great cattle. There's a Murray Grey breeder that has drool worth cattle. Bright Raven has fantastic cattle. Nesi's herd of mongrels (sorry, buddy :lol: ) are great looking. There's several here that do strictly commercial that have great looking cattle. Randi in Canada, who has a pretty large commercial herd, has probably some of the best cattle I've ever seen. There's another on here that BR posts pictures for that are as solid a bovine as I've seen anywhere else. I've never seen any of yours.

I appreciate the nice compliments, not just about my cattle but about all the other great cattle posted on the forum.

It is disappointing that Branded cannot even tender his apology without criticism. As I previously stated, I had a blunt discussion off the forum with James. My message was that he brings great topics to the forum but his delivery needs to be "toned down". I used the analogy of trying to sell snowballs to Eskimos. I can see in his posts this evening that he took my suggestions to heart.

 

[Bright Raven]

Here you go Best:

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Beautiful pictures, Best.

 

[Bright Raven]

Beautiful pictures, Best.

Jeanne, those are pictures Gcreekranch sent me. They are not cows Best has. He told me his are much better. ;-)

 

[Bestoutwest]

Beautiful pictures, Best.

Jeanne, those are pictures Gcreekranch sent me. They are not cows Best has. He told me his are much better. ;-)

Oh boy, now it's getting deep! :lol: I'd like to think mine are superior, but with my new glasses and it still being dark early, I know it's just pasture blindness.

 

[Nesikep]

I have a burning question... Where are ranches like Schaff getting their improved genetics from? Thin air?

Nesi

Schaff is doing exactly what all of us should be doing and that is improving each generation' in other words they are making their own improved genetics. Your not a purebred operation but you have developed a pretty consistent herd, how did you accomplish that? Take a look at some of the Schaff sires, study the pedigrees. For example SAV Quarterback you will see a lot of SAV prefix cattle in the pedigree. You will also see consistency across the herd with regard to pedigree. I have said this before but it is worth repeating. Find the genetic lines that blend well in your herd and your environment, then stick with those genetic lines.
We have purchased donors, and the ones we purchased had the genetic lines you will find throughout our herd. We have been doing a lot of flushing but we have not been selling embryos. The boss accuses me of having Indian cattle, you know in India they are sacred lol! I do find it hard to let one of our ET females leave, but then again I have several cows that I just can't let a heifer out of them go.

Gizmom

That's kinda my point.. Schaff has a head start on what is currently desirable.. they aren't really "creating" new genetics but doing a good job of selecting what works.
Which brings me back again to making big money with 4 cows.. ain't gonna happen, it takes a lot of luck and a lot of skill, and a good bunch of cows to ever hit the jackpot and get a really good animal.. I've seen it in my herd, Grandma of the two I posted, of her 11 daughters I kept 5 (and wish I'd have kept a 6th).. 2 were exceptional, 2 were good, and one was a dud. 3 in each performance group but sired by the same bull.. Oldest one hits a home run every time, her calves are copies of her.. Her sister is doing well, but the calves don't tickle my fancy as much, Other sister could barely feed her calves.. Now mine don't have EPD's of course, but that's a good example of how there's still so much unpredictability in breeding.

There's also a HUGE barrier to entry when it comes to selling $10K and up bulls.. if you don't have a name already, you'll never get there, with your 4 cows you'll never sell enough to get recognition, even if you have great bulls

 

[Silver]

I'll just stick to using these awful creatures of questionable lineage, and breed them to my underachieving cows.
I don't think I would handle the fame and fortune very well that would come with using the superior genetics I see touted on a regular basis.

 

[Bright Raven]

I'll just stick to using these awful creatures of questionable lineage, and breed them to my underachieving cows.
I don't think I would handle the fame and fortune very well that would come with using the superior genetics I see touted on a regular basis.

Silver:

Your objectives are not the same as a seedstock producer. Think about it. You are making a comparison of apples to oranges.

Imagine if I, as a seller of bulls to commercial cattle producers, could not tell my customer the bulls lineage! Or if I told him the bull was out of a commercial cow of unknown pedigree! I would be back to square one selling my calves as feeders.

Everyone Who has contacted me about buying a bull, first requests the Registration number before they make a visit to see the walking bull. If the numbers don't look good, my chances for a visit are not good! If I can get the customer to the farm, I have yet to see one leave unimpressed!

I TOTALLY understand that producing calves for slaughter changes the equation. You don't have the burden of "fame and fortune" hanging over your head. The genetics of your herd does not have to endure the scrutiny that mine does. You are much more concerned with performance. But I don't have that luxury. My buyers many times are looking for a bull sired by a specific bull. For example, last summer I sold a Broadway bull that was NOT calving ease. It just happened that I advertised the bull, thinking my chances were slim, and got a call in the first hour of listing. The guy wanted a PB Broadway.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

I thought the goals of both seedstock, and commercial was to produce a real world profitable animal, that meets the demands of the current market?
Apparently some believe seedstock means producing animals that might be profitable in the real world, and meet the market demands of their own creation.
If you raise actual seedstock your final goal should be the same as a commercial breeder, profit on lower inputs, and meet market demands. Not only should you be looking at how heifers will perform in a commercial environment, but how will the steers meet current market demands.
Problem is some that call themselves "seedstock producers", are more like "PB cattle producers" which only have names, style and hype in mind.

 

[Ebenezer]

I thought the goals of both seedstock, and commercial was to produce a real world profitable animal, that meets the demands of the current market?
Apparently some believe seedstock means producing animals that might be profitable in the real world, and meet the market demands of their own creation.
If you raise actual seedstock your final goal should be the same as a commercial breeder, profit on lower inputs, and meet market demands. Not only should you be looking at how heifers will perform in a commercial environment, but how will the steers meet current market demands.
Problem is some that call themselves "seedstock producers", are more like "PB cattle producers" which only have names, style and hype in mind.

Sometimes the ivy hides the ivory towers.

 

[Silver]

BR, the point I'm trying to make is that seed stock production is not a closed loop. Or at least it should not be. All those genetics mean nothing if they don't eventually produce a side of hanging beef. From the long view, that's the end game. Guys like me need animals that produce, and I feel it's doubtful that I would get better production from highly promoted semen. I have serious doubts that SAV America would improve anything noticeably. That may sound cocky and arrogant, but I believe it to be true.
Seed stock guys trading expensive animals between each other creates a false economy. It may well be that in time those genetics will trickle down to my level, but I need affordable genetics every year, and feel that I can get bulls that are every bit as productive and more practical than the big expensive names by shopping locally.
I agree, if I were trying to make my fortune selling bulls I would want name recognition. Name recognition is big. Even if you are using someone else's name like Branded. Personally I would rather take a slower route and make my own reputation, but hey, whatever works.
Oh, and I do buy bulls out of commercial cows with unknown pedigree. And I don't care to know the bulls lineage for that matter, I may be alone in this, but I feel I get better information looking at the herd, the environment the bulls were raised in, looking at the cow families present, looking at the calf's contemporaries, etc.
Something some of you lose sight of is that those of us that retain heifers over the decades are all still breeding to make the perfect cow, whether we are commercial or seed stock.