Purebred Angus bulls without papers

[Bright Raven]

I thought the goals of both seedstock, and commercial was to produce a real world profitable animal, that meets the demands of the current market?

The goals are not in dispute. There are those goals and more. BUT the practices employed by each are different. The seedstock producer makes the tool, the commercial producer uses the tool. Even though the goals are the same.

It is the seedstock producers job to put together the genetic package that achieves those goals you laid out so well.

It is the commercial producers job to use those genetic packages, blend it into his herd, refine it to meet his needs and achieve those goals you laid out so well.

If I was interpreting Silver correctly, the point I was making is that the seedstock producer has to pay mind to the advances in genetics. It is not just an arrogant pursuit. It is a fundamental part of seedstock breeding.

 

[Bright Raven]

BR, the point I'm trying to make is that seed stock production is not a closed loop. Or at least it should not be. All those genetics mean nothing if they don't eventually produce a side of hanging beef. From the long view, that's the end game. Guys like me need animals that produce, and I feel it's doubtful that I would get better production from highly promoted semen. I have serious doubts that SAV America would improve anything noticeably. That may sound cocky and arrogant, but I believe it to be true.
Seed stock guys trading expensive animals between each other creates a false economy. It may well be that in time those genetics will trickle down to my level, but I need affordable genetics every year, and feel that I can get bulls that are every bit as productive and more practical than the big expensive names by shopping locally.
I agree, if I were trying to make my fortune selling bulls I would want name recognition. Name recognition is big. Even if you are using someone else's name like Branded. Personally I would rather take a slower route and make my own reputation, but hey, whatever works.
Oh, and I do buy bulls out of commercial cows with unknown pedigree. And I don't care to know the bulls lineage for that matter, I may be alone in this, but I feel I get better information looking at the herd, the environment the bulls were raised in, looking at the cow families present, looking at the calf's contemporaries, etc.
Something some of you lose sight of is that those of us that retain heifers over the decades are all still breeding to make the perfect cow, whether we are commercial or seed stock.

Silver, trading those high glamour cattle is just as real to the economy as Las Vegas gambling.

That is not going to change even if we were all to agree it is nothing more than glitter. It is still real and it is good for the cattle industry.

I think what runs in and out of this thread is that the guy chasing the glamour and glitter is putting the commercial producer down. And I do think Branded contributed to that and he says he is going to "dial that down". I honestly don't think he was deliberately trying to hurt others feelings.

 

[Rydero]

I think a lot of the disconnect between seed stock and commercial producers can be attributed to the fact that most commercial producers crossbreed. It's way harder to move the needle on a purebred herd because you can only use one breed, so the seed stock guys need to use bulls with exceptional numbers in a certain trait to make a noticeable change. If you're crossbreeding you can use a different breed that excels in the trait you want and make a bigger change with a less exceptional(expensive) bull. If I'm crossbreeding I don't need your "best" bull - the cross does a lot of the work. Something both sides should keep in mind.

 

[Silver]

The goals are not in dispute. There are those goals and more. BUT the practices employed by each are different. The seedstock producer makes the tool, the commercial producer uses the tool. Even though the goals are the same.

This right here is I think the idea that bothers me the most about this whole thread. The seedstock guy doesn't make the tool, he uses tools just like the commercial guy.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I think a lot of the disconnect between seed stock and commercial producers can be attributed to the fact that most commercial producers crossbreed. It's way harder to move the needle on a purebred herd because you can only use one breed, so the seed stock guys need to use bulls with exceptional numbers in a certain trait to make a noticeable change. If you're crossbreeding you can use a different breed that excels in the trait you want and make a bigger change with a less exceptional(expensive) bull. If I'm crossbreeding I don't need your "best" bull - the cross does a lot of the work. Something both sides should keep in mind.

Good points, but I have a question, if you don't have a large database of DNA tested animals, such as Angus does, then how do you measure performance/improvement as a result of your cross?

You may get pounds, but did you lose marbling? You gained significantly in some visible phenotypic traits but it's what you can't see that might be the devil in the details. You might have lost efficiency or something else, possibly you may have unknowingly brought a genetic defect carrier into your herd. Who knows if you can't test that animal against a contemporary group which includes hundreds of thousands, if not more, submitted weights and DNA tests.

Imagine going on a trip without a map or GPS? Same concept. Angus Source or HD50k doesn't clear up everything, but it does give you a general set of directions. When you cross to a high quality Angus bull, that is tested with Angus Source and the genetic bundle test, and that bull is above average and free of defects, then the likelihood of future problems has been significantly reduced in your herd. Angus brings a lot more to the table than just a black hide. They are sitting on an unbelievable amount of data, and it's all right at your fingertips.

A bull with absolutely no information other than his phenotype to prove himself, might very well turn out to be a bad move long term.

Everyone knows how long it takes to develop a set of great heifers, why take a risk on a bull with absolutely no data or pedigree information. That's flying blind in my book.

 

[callmefence]

;-) I'm sure glad Raven gave you that stern talking-to..... ;-)

 

[Ebenezer]

then how do you measure performance/improvement as a result of your cross?

Female function if retained and buyer acceptance and profit if sold.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

I thought the goals of both seedstock, and commercial was to produce a real world profitable animal, that meets the demands of the current market?

The goals are not in dispute. There are those goals and more. BUT the practices employed by each are different. The seedstock producer makes the tool, the commercial producer uses the tool. Even though the goals are the same.

It is the seedstock producers job to put together the genetic package that achieves those goals you laid out so well.

It is the commercial producers job to use those genetic packages, blend it into his herd, refine it to meet his needs and achieve those goals you laid out so well.

If I was interpreting Silver correctly, the point I was making is that the seedstock producer has to pay mind to the advances in genetics. It is not just an arrogant pursuit. It is a fundamental part of seedstock breeding.

Most of the advances in genetics seedstock likes to pursue, and market, end up sacrificing one thing for another.
Look at SAV's most current bulls, in their pursuit for higher WW and yw, they ended up sacrificing f/g. Don't believe me look up the most current bull tests. To the commercial breeder, and the feedlots, how much profit an animal eats is very important.
Simmental in their pursuit to become more feminine, ended up sacrificing milk, along with utter structure and longivity. Which once again is important to the commercial breeder. A 5 y/o with a broke down bag is only costing money to the commercial breeder.
To the majority commercial breeders balance is more profitable than extremes.
Many of you like to say seedstock can be managed different than commerical because the difference in revenue, and breeding.
I say if the seedstock can not be managed and bred in the same manner in which commercial stock is managed, then they do not have the same goals as commerical cattle.

 

[Bright Raven]

;-) I'm sure glad Raven gave you that stern talking-to..... ;-)

:cboy:

 

[Rydero]

I think a lot of the disconnect between seed stock and commercial producers can be attributed to the fact that most commercial producers crossbreed. It's way harder to move the needle on a purebred herd because you can only use one breed, so the seed stock guys need to use bulls with exceptional numbers in a certain trait to make a noticeable change. If you're crossbreeding you can use a different breed that excels in the trait you want and make a bigger change with a less exceptional(expensive) bull. If I'm crossbreeding I don't need your "best" bull - the cross does a lot of the work. Something both sides should keep in mind.

Good points, but I have a question, if you don't have a large database of DNA tested animals, such as Angus does, then how do you measure performance/improvement as a result of your cross?

You may get pounds, but did you lose marbling? You gained significantly in some visible phenotypic traits but it's what you can't see that might be the devil in the details. You might have lost efficiency or something else, possibly you may have unknowingly brought a genetic defect carrier into your herd. Who knows if you can't test that animal against a contemporary group which includes hundreds of thousands, if not more, submitted weights and DNA tests.

Imagine going on a trip without a map or GPS? Same concept. Angus Source or HD50k doesn't clear up everything, but it does give you a general set of directions. When you cross to a high quality Angus bull, that is tested with Angus Source and the genetic bundle test, and that bull is above average and free of defects, then the likelihood of future problems has been significantly reduced in your herd. Angus brings a lot more to the table than just a black hide. They are sitting on an unbelievable amount of data, and it's all right at your fingertips.

A bull with absolutely no information other than his phenotype to prove himself, might very well turn out to be a bad move long term.

Everyone knows how long it takes to develop a set of great heifers, why take a risk on a bull with absolutely no data or pedigree information. That's flying blind in my book.

Careful what you ask I'm a total heretic. I measure my performance by the average weight of the calves I wean and what I get per pound vs the market. I use a terminal cross so a lot of the details are irrelevant. I don't care about marbling I get paid by the pound and I do very well vs what I spend on inputs.

I go on trips without a GPS all the time cause I know where I'm going, in fact we all did until not very long ago. How many people have gone where they shouldn't because they listened to their GPS instead of their sense? Sure your breed has a lot of data but science also tells me that crossbred animals are more healthy, productive and I can improve traits faster by crossbreeding.

I buy papered bulls from reputable breeders for good money and I look at the EPD's of my bulls along with the phenotype. If a bull is a bad move in the short term he's gone and there is no long term.

It doesn't take any time at all for me to develop heifers. I buy them.

 

[Bright Raven]

The goals are not in dispute. There are those goals and more. BUT the practices employed by each are different. The seedstock producer makes the tool, the commercial producer uses the tool. Even though the goals are the same.

This right here is I think the idea that bothers me the most about this whole thread. The seedstock guy doesn't make the tool, he uses tools just like the commercial guy.

Are we talking what should be or what is?

Whether it is proper practice or malpractice, today's average commercial cattle producer in Kentucky looks toward "seedstock" producers to "make" them the bull of their dreams. This is encouraged by the quest for "genetic improvement". It is what fuels the bull and heifer programs pursuant to CAIP in Kentucky. There is a market for bulls with "noteworthy" genetics and numbers.

REMEMBER: The average cattle producer in Kentucky has 20 head and works a full time job. They buy their bulls - some from other commercial producers or even the stockyards - and most buy their heifers.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

I think a lot of the disconnect between seed stock and commercial producers can be attributed to the fact that most commercial producers crossbreed. It's way harder to move the needle on a purebred herd because you can only use one breed, so the seed stock guys need to use bulls with exceptional numbers in a certain trait to make a noticeable change. If you're crossbreeding you can use a different breed that excels in the trait you want and make a bigger change with a less exceptional(expensive) bull. If I'm crossbreeding I don't need your "best" bull - the cross does a lot of the work. Something both sides should keep in mind.

Good points, but I have a question, if you don't have a large database of DNA tested animals, such as Angus does, then how do you measure performance/improvement as a result of your cross?

You may get pounds, but did you lose marbling? You gained significantly in some visible phenotypic traits but it's what you can't see that might be the devil in the details. You might have lost efficiency or something else, possibly you may have unknowingly brought a genetic defect carrier into your herd. Who knows if you can't test that animal against a contemporary group which includes hundreds of thousands, if not more, submitted weights and DNA tests.

Imagine going on a trip without a map or GPS? Same concept. Angus Source or HD50k doesn't clear up everything, but it does give you a general set of directions. When you cross to a high quality Angus bull, that is tested with Angus Source and the genetic bundle test, and that bull is above average and free of defects, then the likelihood of future problems has been significantly reduced in your herd. Angus brings a lot more to the table than just a black hide. They are sitting on an unbelievable amount of data, and it's all right at your fingertips.

A bull with absolutely no information other than his phenotype to prove himself, might very well turn out to be a bad move long term.

Everyone knows how long it takes to develop a set of great heifers, why take a risk on a bull with absolutely no data or pedigree information. That's flying blind in my book.

Careful what you ask I'm a total heretic. I measure my performance by the average weight of the calves I wean and what I get per pound vs the market. I use a terminal cross so a lot of the details are irrelevant. I don't care about marbling I get paid by the pound and I do very well vs what I spend on inputs.

I go on trips without a GPS all the time cause I know where I'm going, in fact we all did until not very long ago. How many people have gone where they shouldn't because they listened to their GPS instead of their sense? Sure your breed has a lot of data but science also tells me that crossbred animals are more healthy, productive and I can improve traits faster by crossbreeding.

I agree with what you've said Cause I crossbreed.. But a lot can be hidden in the crossbreds..they are superior to their parents. But also one hit wonders..

 

[CattleMan1920]

then how do you measure performance/improvement as a result of your cross?

Female function if retained and buyer acceptance and profit if sold.

You want to spend a long, long time seeing who the winners are, or use tools to reduce that time frame?

 

[bigbluegrass]

What really gets under my skin in this and other recent threads is that several members who sell registered bulls feel the need to run down commercial cattle operations, especially in KY. But, after giving it some thought, I realized that apparently commercial cattle operations in KY are selling more breeding stock than the registered cattle operations (at least from what I have read on here). :idea: Maybe the registered bull sellers should try to figure out why they are getting beat in sales, rather than run this aggressive smear campaign

 

[Nesikep]

Look what all the show lines did to the Shorthorns.. while there are shorthorns out there that are good functional animals, a lot of the big names got there from show success, not production and longevity.. all this clubby stuff like Monopoly that looks like a bloody poodle is of absolutely no interest to me.

So which of these calves are from a homeraised bull, which ones have a pedigreed sire/dam?, and which ones do you like, at least from the top view

 

[CattleMan1920]

What really gets under my skin in this and other recent threads is that several members who sell registered bulls feel the need to run down commercial cattle operations, especially in KY. But, after giving it some thought, I realized that apparently commercial cattle operations in KY are selling more breeding stock than the registered cattle operations (at least from what I have read on here). :idea: Maybe the registered bull sellers should try to figure out why they are getting beat in sales, rather than run this aggressive smear campaign

Ask yourself, would the majority of bulls in Kentucky even begin to hold their own at the Midland test? I seriously doubt it.

I know there are serious commercial producers in Kentucky, but the majority are a LONG WAY from quality cattle or else the prices would reflect it.

Either that, or the Barbers are picking off everyone in site and making a huge arbitrage out west. Maybe both.

 

[lithuanian farmer]

Look what all the show lines did to the Shorthorns.. while there are shorthorns out there that are good functional animals, a lot of the big names got there from show success, not production and longevity.. all this clubby stuff like Monopoly that looks like a bloody poodle is of absolutely no interest to me.

So which of these calves are from a homeraised bull, which ones have a pedigreed sire/dam?, and which ones do you like, at least from the top view

Two from the right and the second from the left catches my eye. Especially the one with the white.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Go to Boyd's sale this year or watch the sale report, seriously doubt it will be locals bidding.

In my county at least, it's an afterthought, the only thing that matters is the number of animals walking in the field and if they can get enough weight on to bring in a few shekels. They could care less about the cattle, or quality, otherwise they would not be feeding out moldy hay to them and expecting a miracle.

Today I spoke with a commercial producer in my county for some advice on a few things, so I do listen to commercial guys as well, but the ones that are pros. Take his hay for example, he wraps everything and usually has double what he needs in case of a winter like the one we had this year or a drought. He is the type of guy that is overprepared, of course he's been doing it for 30 years. Those type of producers are NOT the ones I speak poorly of on here. Those are the ones I admire. Again, if you are doing things well, there is no reason to get huffy with me.

Oh sh...t, I'm wound up again, must put phone down.

 

[TexasBred]

Go to Boyd's sale this year or watch the sale report, seriously doubt it will be locals bidding.

In my county at least, it's an afterthought, the only thing that matters is the number of animals walking in the field and if they can get enough weight on to bring in a few shekels. They could care less about the cattle, or quality, otherwise they would not be feeding out moldy hay to them and expecting a miracle.

Today I spoke with a commercial producer in my county for some advice on a few things, so I do listen to commercial guys as well, but the ones that are pros. Take his hay for example, he wraps everything and usually has double what he needs in case of a winter like the one we had this year or a drought. He is the type of guy that is overprepared, of course he's been doing it for 30 years. Those type of producers are NOT the ones I speak poorly of on here. Those are the ones I admire. Again, if you are doing things well, there is no reason to get huffy with me.

Oh sh...t, I'm wound up again, must put phone down.

Ok so he wraps his hay. What else does he do with it to make it superior. Fertilize according to soil sample and fertilize on time. Cut on time, bale on time, store inside. If not it's just wrapped junk. If you purchased it would he allow you to test it yourself before committing to buy?? Just curious.

 

[jehosofat]

Wonder how much a ribeye would be out of a million dollar bull? You purebred guys forget that the vast majority of cattle raised, end up on a plate. All the registered cattle in Kentucky couldn't keep McDonalds in business for one day.