Profit from cattle?? Where is it?

[OhioRiver]

Are you implying that a hot EPD product means nothing if I get one..........the fee to care for them can be nominal in place of what it costs me opportunity cost wise at times to do things daily with the animals. I think it could work. I would love to come on here and be honest and tell you nay sayers a thing or two. I enjoy the nobility that some of you think in poverty. I wonder if all cattle producers are hobbyists.

I would place my purchases on another farm and pay the fee they ask for care as long as it is reasonable. I believe you can find some places that would do that in Kentucky.

and

Are you telling me if my calves come out as hot progeny that I cannot make money off of them??

Let me do that again with one word emphasized by me: "Are you telling me IF my calves come out as hot progeny that I cannot make money off of them??"

AND you are going to pay somebody else to take care of them?

Well I waste my money on stupid stuff sometimes too. Have fun!

 

[Brute 23]

I was told when I was younger, "YOu have all these ideas but none of them ever go through".

I would respond, "BUT when that one does..."

1 in 4 odds seems pretty good to me... :lol:

I was told this once by a mentor when we were talking through a business idea. He said,"Start at the shallow end and walk you way to the deep end. The worse that can happen is you stub your toe and learn not to go that way again. Don't just dive into the deep end because there might be some thing you can't see right now. If you hit some thing there is could effect you the rest of you life and you may not ever be able to get back in the water.";-)

 

[Jogeephus]

Are you implying that a hot EPD product means nothing if I get one..........the fee to care for them can be nominal in place of what it costs me opportunity cost wise at times to do things daily with the animals. I think it could work. I would love to come on here and be honest and tell you nay sayers a thing or two. I enjoy the nobility that some of you think in poverty. I wonder if all cattle producers are hobbyists.

You assume an aweful lot. Good luck cowboy!

I would place my purchases on another farm and pay the fee they ask for care as long as it is reasonable. I believe you can find some places that would do that in Kentucky.

and

Are you telling me if my calves come out as hot progeny that I cannot make money off of them??

Let me do that again with one word emphasized by me: "Are you telling me IF my calves come out as hot progeny that I cannot make money off of them??"

AND you are going to pay somebody else to take care of them?

Well I waste my money on stupid stuff sometimes too. Have fun!

 

[Stepper]

I will give you something else to ponder about while you are considering getting into the business. If you are going to get into agriculture of any kind wether it be cattle, rowe crops etc..., You better be a gambling man.

Alot of people like myself included like to figure things are going to work out perfectly or in other words they sort of like to count their chickens before they hatch. :lol:

Well that works fine and dandy when you put a pencil to it. But when it is time for thoes chickens to hatch the first thing alot of new farmers like myself learn is that all them eggs dont hatch. :lol:

So when the time comes to sale that dozen chickens to pay the banker man and only 6 of the 12 eggs hatched and the other 6 turned out to be duds. :shock:

The old banker man probably is not going to be any to happy while you are tring to explain to him why you dont have his money. :lol:

And sometimes a coon will get in the hen house and wipe out the entire clutch of eggs. And well, It would probably be better to just pack up and go on down the road and not even try to explain to the banker man what happened. ;-)

 

[Hippie Rancher]

Are you implying that a hot EPD product means nothing if I get one..........the fee to care for them can be nominal in place of what it costs me opportunity cost wise at times to do things daily with the animals. I think it could work. I would love to come on here and be honest and tell you nay sayers a thing or two. I enjoy the nobility that some of you think in poverty. I wonder if all cattle producers are hobbyists.

Not sure what you mean by "be honest and tell you nay sayers a thing or two" and I apologize for the snarky post, but I see you asking really naive sorts of question and talking about some pretty risky stuff, financially. And nothing wrong with asking naive questions - that is what this forum is hear for, but combining that naivete with big schemes is where the conflict is.

I don't think people should discourage dreamers, but maybe try a little common sense and start out on a less grandiose level. I guess it is like any gambling - if you can afford to loose that kind of money than go ahead and try it that way - if it goes sour you will be able to afford it, and if you make a profit well hey! you can come tell us so.

I personally have a problem with your hands off approach. The best way to learn about cattle is to be around them. Your approach is mechanical and materialistic - nothing inherently wrong with that, just not my style. I love the animals and enjoy working with them to do what they do best - convert sunshine into more of themselves, delicious meat, and a few bucks for me to live on. Just a damn hippie. :tiphat:

 

[rockridgecattle]

Ohio River, as i read this thread I have to wonder, have you thought it all out? I mean you seem to think, just cause to get two cows, high priced, add in high priced embryos, (something which i know nothing about but..) you get two high priced calves (assuming the cow has good colostrum, good qualilty milk and puts the money in the calf and not on her) in which to pay your expenses and make a load of...manure.
I'm liking Stepper's chicken story.
It's true with cows.
That high priced cow gave birth to a high priced dead calf or backwards or real sick, or scoured, dehydrated and died or got BVD or impaled it self on a fence post (read about that one here). Anything can and will go wrong when dealing with livestock. (Murphy's first law)
One of the joys and one of the curses. The joy in how you handled it or solved the problem, the curse in the drugs, vet fees, worries if insurance will pay for the impaling fence post calf.
You got this high priced cow, and this high priced embryo. The implant did not take. Or she had a problem calving that high priced calf and did not breed back. Now that high priced cow is pretty worthless.
Some of the things that i have listed here are only but a few things we as "cattle producers" face each and everyday. Add in weather, storms, drought, hay, no hay, machinery breakdows and purchases...you have yourself a perfect farming year. Glad to be able to pay the bills and something to treat the family to at the end of the year.
These are things you might want to think about in your perfect world of making money on cattle, where nothing goes wrong and everything is peachy. :shock:

edit, i just clued in on the sending them to someone else to look after....what if...boy are there a load of what ifs in this senario.
If you want to learn about cattle, go work for a cow calf producer for a year. Then go and work in a feed lot for a year, then come back and tell us how you are going to make money...

Luck you are going to need it

 

[jvicars]

what gets me the most about the cattle business is the price (in the store) of beef has gone up a ton. any other business would charge more since the cost have risen significantly. i do it for a hobby but i appreicate the hard work that goes into it and its feeding the world. as land goes to developers and large ranches go away the small farmers will take control. maybe a new generation will push the issue. the rest of the economy like fuel does not mind charging more and look what the oil companies are making. enough rant.

 

[Brandonm2]

Are you implying that a hot EPD product means nothing if I get one..........

That is your problem. Everybody in the Angus breed, more or less A.I.s with the same 100 or so bulls. I have seen Bon View New Design 1407 daughters sell for $100,000 plus; but he has 25,000 such daughters out there for a buyer to pick from. WHY would he buy yours when half of the established brands in the breed are selling heifers with virtually the same pedigree (and expected EPDs) as you are selling. I never said you can't succeed, just never believe that you can't fail.

 

[OhioRiver]

If I wanted to be a cowhand, I would quit my JOB and ask someone to pay me little to work on a farm per se. Why in the heck would I want to work for a producer for a year, then work for a feedlot for a year so I can appease the notion of having made little money and lost my home in the county due to the notion of working on a farm. That may be the old way of thinking and I am sure it is fine and was at one time. Business people make money or they change their business. I have no intentions of beating my head against the fence post waiting for years of hands on when you can go to any one of a dozen seminars or clinics at any one time throughout the southeast. The internet has brought about valuable information on things I knew nothing about. I, purposefully, have forecast models in place for all kinds of Murpy's Law actions.....that is what forecasting is for. I appreciate your comments, but I see a ton of saddened people on this board who just think there is no money in the world today. Perhaps, you don't have any and you want others to feel bad too. I don't know...I only know what I think. I have friends who raise Angus all around me that I have met in the last couple of months who have invited me to their place at anytime to involve myself with them to show me first hand what is the deal at certain times of the year. They advised me that if I did not want to pay a higher price for property specifically for Angus and have that overhead and lost opportunity costs, then by all means bring the two cows to their operation ( which is donor angus producing ) and pay them a small fee in my mind to have them their until their births, miscarriage, impaling, death while birthing, disease, or whatever...I get it....or perhaps a birth. Maybe the embryo did not pass on good traits. Maybe the embryo does not take and I eat that cost. Maybe the calf just doesnt come up to snuff. But maybe it does. Maybe I can do this and it be revolutionary. It appears that it might be as so many think it cannot be done in this manner. The two multi millionaires that are successful in it for years tell me this is a way I should go but slowly and cautiously. If stuff goes wrong I can walk away. If it progresses then I go forward. NOTHING VENTURED NOTHING GAINED.
If you want to learn about cattle, go work for a cow calf producer for a year. Then go and work in a feed lot for a year, then come back and tell us how you are going to make money...

Luck you are going to need it[/quote]

 

[OhioRiver]

That is the best summary of probability I have seen on this board yet. Thank you. You are so right. It is not a model for failure but a needed change in the approach of the genetic marketing. If there were 10 $50$B regional donors then I would have a steady market and probably presell them. If there are 2500 of the same or thereabouts in my market then the price falls dramatically. My ignorance is I have no idea how many true donor producers there are that have influxed the market in the last 5 years or so causing this downward spiral in prices while most people on here are expecting them to go higher and higher. I have been combatting the wrong issue. Not the fact that I can produce one or not. But, what will I do when I get the genetic jumper. I would need a market for her or him and I am not sure it will be there. No one wants to eat or scrap a genetic jumper do they??

Are you implying that a hot EPD product means nothing if I get one..........

That is your problem. Everybody in the Angus breed, more or less A.I.s with the same 100 or so bulls. I have seen Bon View New Design 1407 daughters sell for $100,000 plus; but he has 25,000 such daughters out there for a buyer to pick from. WHY would he buy yours when half of the established brands in the breed are selling heifers with virtually the same pedigree (and expected EPDs) as you are selling. I never said you can't succeed, just never believe that you can't fail.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Cattle can make you profits. The profit varies from year to year with conditions and market fluctuation, supply and demand. There are niche markets. Sugna Werks is making a lot of nickels on F-1's right now. They cannot produce enough eared brindle cows but they are taking a little bit of a hit on the steers they produce. That is just the way it goes.

Most folks are not getting rich off of cattle. It takes a big operation to spread out the cost of facilities and equipment. It is tough to make good profit with small operations.

Some of us are making a little profit, and getting property tax exemptions.

I know some folks making good on cattle and I know some folks trying to make money.

 

[Syd Sydney]

The biggest obstacle you have facing you is that you have no credibility in this business. If you want to get in to the "flushing and transplant avenue" you might be better off buying a half interest in an AI bull or a flush cow.

BTW most people would never even consider hiring you as a hired hand so no need to worry about quitting your job to do that :lol: :lol: :lol: .

 

[OhioRiver]

backhoe......my wife is screaming at me to do one thing. Be able to make the annual house payment with the cows I work with. I don't know how many years I have to do this to get to a level of such but it has a nice ring to it.

Cattle can make you profits. The profit varies from year to year with conditions and market fluctuation, supply and demand. There are niche markets. Sugna Werks is making a lot of nickels on F-1's right now. They cannot produce enough eared brindle cows but they are taking a little bit of a hit on the steers they produce. That is just the way it goes.

Most folks are not getting rich off of cattle. It takes a big operation to spread out the cost of facilities and equipment. It is tough to make good profit with small operations.

Some of us are making a little profit, and getting property tax exemptions.

I know some folks making good on cattle and I know some folks trying to make money.

 

[dun]

OR, with your vast business knowledge from having an MBA and not wanting to actually touch the filthy cows, why not play the options market?

 

[MissouriExile]

So are you telling me I cannot make money buying surrogate angus cows and buying higher dollar embryos placed by and embryologist. Are you telling me if my calves come out as hot progeny that I cannot make money off of them?? ]

I am just as inexperienced as you and so cannot give you an experienced answer.
That said, There is a lot about your premise that I find troubling.

How much control do you have over the following.....

"If my calves come out as hot progeny" ?

1. Gosh, If it is that easy why isn't everyone here doing it? Heck, why am I buying land, saving up and buying cattle a couple at a time trying to build a quality commercial herd. Easy money to be had without owning land, equipment, fencing, barns. I'm ready!!

2. Are there folks running around the country waving $5000 begging for these calves? How do you find them? Marketing Costs? You have to convince someone that the cow is worth that kind of money.

3. Why are these folks selling Embryos for $500 (at considerable cost to produce and Market) when all they need is a surrogate cow, a neighbor that will be happy to board her for a few bucks and a little time to get $5000?

I strongly suspect that the real value of a $500.00 embryo is to the person that is working hard to build a strong herd for commercial business purposes.

A few may get lucky but most of us have to remember that "There is no such thing as a free lunch"

Jon

[/u]

 

[rkm]

Sure am enjoying this thread. Its like I'm back in school. Learning for couple of hours then have fun at recess.

 

[Brandonm2]

Not the fact that I can produce one or not. But, what will I do when I get the genetic jumper. I would need a market for her or him and I am not sure it will be there. No one wants to eat or scrap a genetic jumper do they??

The problem is how do you know that that calf IS a genetic jumper?? A calve's EPDs are just the average of his parents and a calve's individual performance is completely disreguarded in the EPD calculations if he is born out of a recipient. Therefore the best INTERIM $B, Weaning Wt EPD etc. you can produce is highest available trait leading sire to the highest trait leading dam that you can purchase. Three years from now when that progeny is a two year old....given that 350,000 more Angus were registered last year and the EPDs are recalculated every six months....how likely is it that it will still be in top 1% of the breed? Even if the animal is, it's numbers won't have any accuracy until he/she starts producing calves and it's numbers are as likely to drop as go down. A genetic jumper raises the bar. Doing what the EPDs predict is NOT good enough. 5-6 years from now many animals will likely have passed today's trait leaders. A genetic jumper has to do better than it's INTERIM numbers would indicate and the only way to know that (for a bull) is to breed him to a lot of cows in multiple herds which means promoting a good bull calf KNOWING that the odds are against him being truly GREAT. For a cow, she almost has to give birth to a great sire to be proven a "genetic jumper" in her lifetime.

 

[Brandonm2]

backhoe......my wife is screaming at me to do one thing. Be able to make the annual house payment with the cows I work with. I don't know how many years I have to do this to get to a level of such but it has a nice ring to it.

Wouldn't it be wise to pay off the mortgage on the house before you buy your first $50,000 donor cow???

 

[rockridgecattle]

I think we passed somewhere on the interstate and missed the connection.
The point I was trying to make is
In any business forcasting is good. BUT...
with cattle forcasting only works to a point. Cows unlike the restraunt business, marketing, computers or what have you,
are alive. They are living breathing creatures and what you plan almost never turns out like you thought it would.
No amount of planning is going to give you the results...let me rephrase that...things are not always what they seem. The end result might get you near to where you want to go, it's the in between that changes. It's how you get there that no amount of forcasting will prepare you for.

I suggested to work on a farm maybe not full time (should have made that clear) but maybe when a guy down the road needs help during different stages of the farm so you know what you are getting into.
Are you going to buy a restraunt without knowing the dynamics of the business? You learn by first taking on job or two in the business so you can minimize the risk.
If we, in our area, were to buy cows and "dump" them on another farm for them to raise, they pay the feed, the mineral, the expense of the infrastucture, we would get depending on the agreement between 20 and 25%. Maybe thirty if we provided the drugs for treatments and vaccinations and helped out once in a while.
We just finished a deal with a guy to look after his animals year round. When he owned his land we gave 50% of the gross sales to him. When we bought his land he got 25% and he paid for major heath concerns. If they needed vaccinations or a shot here and there of LA200 we covered the cost. Anything more than that he paid. Served us well. Served him well. but he never got rich or was able to make his house payment on this.

 

[usernametaken]

...... I have been combatting the wrong issue. Not the fact that I can produce one or not. But, what will I do when I get the genetic jumper. I would need a market for her or him and I am not sure it will be there. No one wants to eat or scrap a genetic jumper do they??

..........

That is your problem. Everybody in the Angus breed, more or less A.I.s with the same 100 or so bulls. I have seen Bon View New Design 1407 daughters sell for $100,000 plus; but he has 25,000 such daughters out there for a buyer to pick from. WHY would he buy yours when half of the established brands in the breed are selling heifers with virtually the same pedigree (and expected EPDs) as you are selling. I never said you can't succeed, just never believe that you can't fail.[/quote][/quote]

Ohio River - I think you just explained what all the "doomsayers" are trying to get across. No one is saying what you want to do can't be done. Nothing ventured nothing gained is exactly right ! But your need to market what you are trying to accomplish will be the highest need in your type of venture and without the background your marketing skills won't start at 0 and work up, they will start in the negatives to work up. That is where your curve is the highest and hardest to overcome and where a year with a cow/calf producer or one of the many other suggestions would make you a credible marketer - and give your idea a better chance of success.