Prices in the Future aka Cattle Crystal Ball

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HDRider

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I read this from someone I trust.

All of the evidence indicates that herd expansion in most areas of the country is well under way. Fewer heifers are being placed on feed and fewer cows are being sent to slaughter. This will continue to drive calf and feeder prices up to new record highs for at least two more years.


Do you agree?

Will prices drop back to "NORMAL" in two or three years?

OR,

Are we in a a "NEW NORMAL" and higher prices are here to stay?
 
New Normal. Look at Fuel, fert, Food and the cost of doing business. The prices are relative to the economy. Barring a outbreak or disaster the prices will stay within the range we are seeing right now. I see to many people with lots of money and very shrewd business men buying cattle not as a hobby but and a investment. these folks know a whole lot more than I do but you can bet there not going to drop back to 500.00 a head any time soon. The population is expanding exponentially and there are not enough goat farms to feed all of the aliens so they will have to eat beef. people bitych and moan at all of the prices but continue to fill their car up eat out and go on with life. Our gas prices right now are 2.98 a gallon and people are Happy about it.
 
New normal. M5 hit my thoughts pretty well on the head. I do think though that you have some people that see money to be made and are buying in that have no experience whatsoever. Even with these high prices there is still plenty of money to be lost. As a local lender I am getting several calls weekly talking about getting in or buying a few more.
 
And BTW- I have changed my strategy some. I had 5 cows on a cull list that I had planned to sell. 3 of them are good cows, they breed on time raise a good calf but are hard doers in the winter. I have decided I will give them another go round this year. I worked a deal this week on 30 acres of my deceased brothers land that is rented to a farmer. He has cotton on it and when It is gathered I will clean it up with cows and plant a cover crop (oats) on it. That should help with the cows that have a harder time. those cows have become more valuable to me for the calves they produce. The other 2 did not breed back on time and are on their way out. I am also keeping 4 heifers this year when I normally buy my replacements.
 
I will not argue against "new normal".

I will ask another question.

Are we pushing on a price ceiling with our "new normal"?
 
HDRider":2wvaba2r said:
I will not argue against "new normal".

I will ask another question.

Are we pushing on a price ceiling with our "new normal"?

Yes, but as with gas, there will be spikes and incremental "creep up" in the price of beef over time.

Every time we hit a new high we get folks conditioned to the cost.
 
I hope it stays up, years ago, I picked 2014 to start my expansion for retirement. It is expensive as crap to be expanding right now. I've culled heavy this year, and will be keeping/buying several heifers. The temptation is there to keep just enough heifers to cover myself, and sell the rest. So far, I've been able to fight that urge.
 
M5farm":rgqx0h8v said:
Barring a outbreak or disaster the prices will stay within the range we are seeing right now.

It will be interesting to see how many US corn fields get seeded down, but in the end, I think there is much more beef production potential in other countries. So I would stock up on grass seed now, and expect more global competition in a couple years. This will drive our prices down. I have no idea to what level.
 
SS hit on something we must consider.

One trade agreement with Brazil or Argentina or who knows, maybe all of South America could send US beef prices into a nosedive.
 
HDRider":2c0ftjhc said:
SS hit on something we must consider.

One trade agreement with Brazil or Argentina or who knows, maybe all of South America could send US beef prices into a nosedive.
If this isn't a "new normal". I'll be out.....unless everything else takes a nosedive also.
 
1982vett":2nalus6z said:
If this isn't a "new normal". I'll be out.....unless everything else takes a nosedive also.

You are right - - the margin is KEY, and grain and hay costs are both down. Hard to get better than this for a cattleman. :cboy:

It is difficult to understand how the grain guys will make this work. They are projecting $2.20 corn in ND. The talking heads say grain guys will stop buying new equipment and try to reduce rent. I asked my fertilizer supplier when they were having a sale and he said don't count on it. I think an underlying issue is that the US is a high cost producer for grain. This should make one think about how competitive is running beef cows on expensive land, vs. bulldozing some more of the Amazon rain forest.

I am spending heavily to buy and fix up used equipment. I bought a disc bine, round baler, and haying tractor recently. Some times I open a gate to move cattle, put out a little salt, and then I spend most of my day running for parts or fixing. I need to take a step back and consider building more fence. :idea:
 
This is going to last a while.... but this is not the new normal. This is the simple economics of supply and demand... demand is strong, supply is short, therefore you get a high price. When the demand drops or supply increases the price will come down.

I work with all types of cattle operations and operators.... at this time I am almost BEGGING them to look at the row crop farming situation right now. Some of these guys thought that $4.50+ Corn and $11.00+ soybeans were the "New Normal" and geared their operations accordingly with new equipment and land and intermediate and long term debt on short term profits. THIS WILL HAPPEN TO THE CATTLE MARKET... SUPPLY CHASES THE MONEY! Make the money and capitalize your company in the good years to help ride out the storms down the road. You don't want to be caught with $3,500 cows, $65,000 pickups and $3,000 per acre pasture when the calf is worth $1.35 @ 700# again. Yes $1.35, 700# steers were only 15 months ago.

Good luck all.
 
I would think the herd expansion is a wash--those expanding are tempered by those taking advantage of high prices and not wanting to winter over in what is projected to be a tough 2014-2015 winter. As of August 2014 USDA says:
Beef and veal prices continued to rise, increasing 4.2 percent from July to August, the largest month-over-month increase since the end of 2003. Beef and veal prices are up 15.1 percent year-over-year. Prices remain high, as the U.S. cattle inventory continued to decrease in recent months and is currently at its lowest level since 1951. Pasture conditions have started to improve in the West; however, there are not yet any signs of herd expansion.

And:
WASHINGTON, D.C. (RFD-TV) Tight cattle supplies might become a bit tighter in 2015, if the U.S. Department of Agriculture's first beef production forecast for next year is any indication.
"We're looking for another 1 percent reduction in beef production, owing to the tight cattle supply, the size of the herd, and so forth. We're looking at 24.56 billion pounds in 2014 and a reduction to 24.32 billion pounds in 2015," said World Agricultural Outlook Board Chairman Gerry Bange.

However, Bange notes that tight supplies should bode well for beef producers from a price stand point.

"If you look at the 2015 price for steers, you're seeing an increase from about 3.2 percent. Again, we're looking at a continuing tight supply on the beef front. So we're looking at a price now of $150.75 per hundred-weight for 2015, compared to $146.09 per hundred-weight for 2014," said Bange.

As for trade, U.S. beef exports are expected to be down 3.3 percent year-to-year.

This report is from our partners at the USDA.[/quote]

Fewer cattle going to slaughter but is it just to hold them back for even higher prices or is it really for total herd expansion?
The Agriculture Department said animals entering feedlots during the month totaled 1.56 million, the lowest level for the month since the current data series started in 1996. Before then, USDA had estimated cattle sizes, but increased the number of states it used to calculate the monthly figure. In Iowa, 56,000 cattle were placed on feed during July, up 17 percent from the same month a year ago.

The record low figure comes as cattle operators are holding back on sending animals to feed lots, taking of advantage of favorable grazing conditions in recent weeks. While the animals are being kept on farms and ranches now, they will help rebuild the herd size to take advantage of potentially higher prices in the future.

"We knew that supplies were extremely tight in June and then it got worse in July," said Rich Nelson, chief strategist with Allendale Inc. "This report confirms that expansion in the industry has started, which actually means for (the next few years) of this expansion process that numbers are going to be tight."

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/ ... /14458447/

But yes, new normal--there isn't much drop at all in beef demand, but I sure see some changes in how beef is being marketed on the consumer end. Thinner cuts, lots of packaging changes, and more and more, I see smaller chuck and rump roasts in the beef fridge section, as well as lots of sub choice/sub select "value packs" of tbone, sirloin and ribeye steaks especially in the bigger grocery stores. Chief USDA economist doesn't look for any change to make down to the consumer end until at least 2016.
If you look at production numbers, we did see some increase in the cow herd in the Upper Midwest and the Eastern Corn Belt area. However, most of the areas west of the Mississippi did see a decline. The concern is that 45% or more of the cattle inventory is currently in a drought area. Some of these areas have been under persistent drought for over four years. There is also feeder cattle from Canada and Mexico being imported, those additional cattle help with the supply as well.
We believe we will see positive signs toward herd size increase in 2015, but that means we will not see significant supply changes until 2016.
http://factsaboutbeef.com/2014/04/23/us ... bout-that/

http://www.usda.gov/oce/commodity/wasde/latest.pdf
11 Sept 2014:
For 2015, beef production is cut as lower placements of cattle in the second half of 2014
are expected to reduce supplies of fed cattle in 2015 despite heavier carcass weights.
Forecasts for 2014 and 2015 beef imports are higher due to tight cull cow supplies and strong
consumer demand for processing grade beef. Beef exports for 2014 and 2015 are unchanged.
The cattle price forecast for 2014 is raised from last month on tightness in supplies of fed cattle. The
price forecast for 2015 is unchanged.

Then there's this ever present ? hanging over everyone's head...
09-19-14-DO.gif
 
I see lots of heifers being retained and sold as replacements
I think some will be surprised at how quick prices will drop
 
Sunfish":1j8qfiwe said:
I see lots of heifers being retained and sold as replacements
I think some will be surprised at how quick prices will drop


Even if we go along with your assumption do you know how long it would be before any of these saved heifers will produce any beef that makes it to your table.

If we say the heifers are 7 months now. It will be another 7 months before they are bred. It will be another 10 months before they calf. It will be another 14+ months before that calf is slaughtered and makes it to your plate. During that time you get 1 drought or 1 bad winter and all those gaines are wiped out. No it will take a long time to work our way out of this hole. Just like we didn't get here over night either.
 
u4411clb":18tu7lsz said:
Sunfish":18tu7lsz said:
I see lots of heifers being retained and sold as replacements
I think some will be surprised at how quick prices will drop


Even if we go along with your assumption do you know how long it would be before any of these saved heifers will produce any beef that makes it to your table.

If we say the heifers are 7 months now. It will be another 7 months before they are bred. It will be another 10 months before they calf. It will be another 14+ months before that calf is slaughtered and makes it to your plate. During that time you get 1 drought or 1 bad winter and all those gaines are wiped out. No it will take a long time to work our way out of this hole. Just like we didn't get here over night either.


I don't assume anything. You assumed I meant right away.
As I said it can recover quicker than most realize. And it did happen all most over night when you consider the cow herd was wiped out in 2011-2012.
It will take longer to rebuild than it did to thin it out, but it can happen faster than most realize barring another drought.( I'm not sure we've seen the last of it)

This aint my first rodeo and I've seen this before, granted not to this extent, but I can show you 600 heifers for sale just down the road from one ranch.
Think about the number of heifers that are being retained in the US just because of the premium their bringing which further amplifies the burden on feeder calf numbers.
In the late 80's bred cows were bringing 1200.00 then in early 90's you'd be lucky to get 500.00

Are we going back to 400.00 calves ?
I doubt but they won't hold at 1500.00
You can mark that on the wall
 
I agree that the prices now are the "new norm" for the foreseeable future. The barriers to entering the cattle business today and the laziness of the American people will keep the prices up as well as the supply and demand. Also there is no way with you can start a cow/calf operation today without any experience and make it. The capital investment is way too high someone would have to have some super deep pockets.
 
skyhightree1":2aa3o6k0 said:
The only thing I know is what goes up must come down... When no one knows.

Demand will have to drop significantly for a corresponding drop in prices. There's really no shortage of cattle, but the production isn't keeping up with the upward trending demand curve--it's still a pretty tight supply vs demand market. It's only when production outpaces demand (or actual consumer demand drops a LOT) that prices will retreat and the supply/demand lines diverge. I just don't see it happening any time soon.

If we say the heifers are 7 months now. It will be another 7 months before they are bred. It will be another 10 months before they calf. It will be another 14+ months before that calf is slaughtered and makes it to your plate.

Not only that, but the calf crop for 2013 was the smallest since 1949. We will see the real effects of that in 2015 regardless of how many heifers are retained, and with the good prices we've seen in the last months, I don't think as many are being retained as one might think.
But, let's say producers DO get serious about heifer retention in early or mid 2015. That won't bring prices down--it's going to put even more pressure on an already tight market because we are taking so many heifers off the market. Assuming demand is steady or comparable to today, market prices will go /\ and that rise will influence a good chunk of producers to keep selling heifer calves.
 

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