I have always heard that the horned version of a breed produces a better, thicker, etc. than the polled version. This is one of those things that I've heard forever and have to confess I guess I have blindly believed. Would someone be so kind as to produce evidence for or against this argument? I don't like being uninformed. Boone
polled vs. horned
- Thread starter boone
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i have said it is just because almost all breeds were horned originally and the animals that are closer to original breed standards should be more impressive.
mixing the animals w/ another breed to get a polled version produces a calf somewhere between the ideal of the 2 breeds and will almost never fully return to original standrds.
mixing the animals w/ another breed to get a polled version produces a calf somewhere between the ideal of the 2 breeds and will almost never fully return to original standrds.
MillIronQH
Well-known member
Does anyone know the reasoning for creating polled cattle in the beginning. I have a theory but it would probably start a board war. Personally I'll take a cow with a good set of hookers over a polled cow of equal quality any day.Z
MillIronQH":f78m26v3 said:
I believe it came as a result of looking for economically important traits. Cattle were already being dehorned or clipped to reduce injury to each other and to their carcasses. Plus it made them easier to handle in a crowded environment without injuring the handler. Many cattle were shipped by rail and the horned cattle had a more of a tendency to injure and bruise each in the rail cars and in the lots when they were crowded or placed in pens for finishing. Saving the cost of dehorning, and the cost of loss due to shock or infection from the dehornings made this trait more desireable. Time is money. Value of carcass is money, Loss of cattle is money. Injury to workers...priceless.
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
There have been natural occuring polled since the begining of time and polled is the dominate gene. The real question is why would anyone want to raise horns to get knocked at the salebarn. They are good for nothing except injuries in the pen or fights in the pasture. Don't lay that crock of crap out about protection from varmits.
MillIronQH
Well-known member
Injury to workers...priceless
Hey!!! I'm one of those workers. Watch it... :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol: Z
Hey!!! I'm one of those workers. Watch it... :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol: Z
NamVet_Farmer44
Well-known member
Caustic Burno":wpnyf3ca said:
I've been raising horned herefords all my life, and they have always brought the same price or higher than the other folks around here with polled herefords, never had many injuries in the pens, and what does horns have to do with them having fights in the pasture? My horned herefords don't seem to fight nearly as much as my chiangus, never had any of my herefords seriously injured from the horns during a fight anyways...Can't say for sure if there is any advantages in the horned herefords bloodlines compared to the polled herefords, but the horns don't seem to affect my income any at the sales, so why change when it aint hurting nothing? If I do start getting knocked at the sales, then i'll consider polled herfs, but until then, i'll keep on raising them horned
boone":l7pl4ii8 said:
I think the problem between polled and horned animals of a breed results from single trait selection. There just wasn't a big base of genetics to pick from when people started breeding Polled Herefords. I used to see a lot of difference between the Polled and Horned Herefords (not that I saw a lot of either) with the Horned ones being thicker.
Several years ago when we started going to a Limousin bull sale, some of the black bulls were not as good as the red ones, but people paid more for them. Last year there were some very good black bulls, maybe as many good black ones as red ones.
I think the single trait selection can be overcome in time once breeders get that single trait incorporated into the breed and start, again, breeding for balanced trait animals.
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
NamVet_Farmer44":33mv57nl said:
Well I guess if you only have a few cows you can keep them seperated or you keep them so fat out of a sack. Anyone that has ran cows for anytime that hasn't have one hurt fighting in the pasture doesn't have many cows. I have seen puncuntured gut to eyeballs gouged out. Horned cattle bring less at the salebarn just fact just like hauling a full blood brammer in the barn.
NamVet_Farmer44
Well-known member
Caustic Burno":3cj18ojb said:
Yeah well I know how it is around here, and I know my horned cattle dont bring any less than the rest of the polled cattle around here...punctured guts and eyeballs gouged out huh? Happens more from accidents than it does in real full blown fights, doesn't happen all that much though...Don't know what all happens in your "rough and wild" little world you got inside of your head but ask anyone with horned herfs, they don't seem to hurt each other as much as some think, they aint out in the wild, they aint got to fight for their right to mate, and one good shove from the older bulls usually puts the younguns in their place...fact is, our herf bulls just don't seem to fight a lot, they got their pecking order and they seem to follow it most of the time without any problems, and when they do have a problem, it's usually just a whole lot of bellarin' and a little bit of pushin'
bgm
Well-known member
Copied from http://www.uaex.edu/Other_Areas/publica ... A-3074.pdf
Cattle buyers often discount calves for the presence of horns. Results from the 2000 Arkansas Livestock Market Survey indicated that polled or dehorned feeder calves sold for an average of $1.49/cwt. more than horned cattle. Horn-related injuries may occur during shipping as well as in the feedlot and are thus undesirable to cattle feeders.
I have a friend that manages a feedlot. He hates horn cattle, particularly long horns. He says horned cattle cause more injuries and take up too much space at the feed trough.
As for me, I don't care if they are born horned or not, they won't stay horned for long.
Cattle buyers often discount calves for the presence of horns. Results from the 2000 Arkansas Livestock Market Survey indicated that polled or dehorned feeder calves sold for an average of $1.49/cwt. more than horned cattle. Horn-related injuries may occur during shipping as well as in the feedlot and are thus undesirable to cattle feeders.
I have a friend that manages a feedlot. He hates horn cattle, particularly long horns. He says horned cattle cause more injuries and take up too much space at the feed trough.
As for me, I don't care if they are born horned or not, they won't stay horned for long.
handydandy
Well-known member
Caustic Burno":er39m0fr said:
We have plenty of cows and I went back to horned herf bulls. They do so much less fighting than anything else we've ever owned. Maybe its just the breeder or the bloodlines but I like my horned bulls better than anything else.
Tennessee Cattleman
Well-known member
Everyone has their own opinion about different characteristics in cattle. I don't see any advantage to having horns on commerical cattle. There are several disavantages to horned cattle. I am in the cattle business to make money, I can't see horns making me any extra money. I grew up on a horned Hereford farm. I don't like handling horned cattle and I don't like dehorning cattle. It's been many years since there have been any horned cattle on my farms. That's just my opinion on horns.
Horned cattle may have an advantage in a range environment for survival and brush popping, but when it comes to the penned environment and handling in tight facilities the benefits of the poll becomes apparent. Finishers would rather have a lot of polled or dehorned cattle over a crowded pen of horned cattle. Why do most seedstock and many commercial cattlemen of purebred herds dehorn their cattle? Go to a cattle show and show me all then horned Limis, Simis, gerts, beefmasters, and Herefords. The only ones you will likely see horns on are the Longhorn...and that is cause it's included in their judging of the animal. How many horned steers you see at shows?
If if you think you don't take a discount in the sale barn? Try dehorning those cattle and give them time to get over the stress, then see if they don't bring more per lb in the sale barn compared to their horned contemporaries.
P.S. I love the look of a good Horned bull, but that don't make it economically practical.
If if you think you don't take a discount in the sale barn? Try dehorning those cattle and give them time to get over the stress, then see if they don't bring more per lb in the sale barn compared to their horned contemporaries.
P.S. I love the look of a good Horned bull, but that don't make it economically practical.
rocket2222
Well-known member
All cattle should have horns, so you no when to get out of thier way.
Cowboymom
Well-known member
I guess I have a little jaded angle on this because I am third generation Horned Hereford breeder. However, we have run thousands of commercial cattle and the horned/polled debate has been something I have been asked and pondered on for a good portion of my life.
Like it has been said, when you select for only one trait, in this case polled, you do end up having to not be as selective in other traits, muscling, milk, bone, etc. However, since the Horned/Polled Hereford Association is now one big happy family, I have seen some polled bulls are really nice. Someone posted a picture of a polled bull on here some time back and he was a nice one, I don't care if he had three horns and was purple with pink polka dots!
As for the mechanics of horns themselves, we horn weight all our cattle so the horns aren't a problem. Some people wait until they are yearlings and slope them with a saw. We don't, just because we don't. Horn weighting is one of the few things in this world that I am good at and just from appearance I think it makes a better profile. I have noticed, read and been told by other people that horned animals don't fight as hard as polled ones do. They hit their horns and get them sore and back off. Also, horned bulls don't seem to "buddy up" as much as polled bulls do. If you look at a bunch of mature herd bulls in a field and the horned bulls have their "space" staked out. Whereas, polled bulls seem to like to hang out in a group. Spreading the bulls out, gets more cows covered as they aren't lining up to breed one hot cow while three more over the hill don't get bred.
I have been hit by both horned and polled animals and I swear that polled animals use their heads just like a battering ram. Horned ones seem to take a rake at you. I have heard of more guys getting killed by polled bulls than horned ones. I don't know if that is a breed variable or a horn variable. Guess with those big old horns they can't get you as hard when you are on the ground up against the fence.
I have never seen an eye gouged or a stomach punctured by a horn, guess it could happen, I have just never seen it. I have had bulls and cows go after my horse and they seem to use their horns more like a shovel, to pick your horse up and flip them.
If cows are homozygous polled and are bred to a horned bull, being that horns are recesssive, you shouldn't get any horns. But that would also be in the fairy tale world of all breeds being "clean" and no outside influences have ever been slipped in.
The only thing I know is that people are for the most part scared to death of horns. I have won more money showing horses on horned cattle just because people freak about them.
This is one of those chicken/egg discussions that will go on until the end of time.
Like it has been said, when you select for only one trait, in this case polled, you do end up having to not be as selective in other traits, muscling, milk, bone, etc. However, since the Horned/Polled Hereford Association is now one big happy family, I have seen some polled bulls are really nice. Someone posted a picture of a polled bull on here some time back and he was a nice one, I don't care if he had three horns and was purple with pink polka dots!
As for the mechanics of horns themselves, we horn weight all our cattle so the horns aren't a problem. Some people wait until they are yearlings and slope them with a saw. We don't, just because we don't. Horn weighting is one of the few things in this world that I am good at and just from appearance I think it makes a better profile. I have noticed, read and been told by other people that horned animals don't fight as hard as polled ones do. They hit their horns and get them sore and back off. Also, horned bulls don't seem to "buddy up" as much as polled bulls do. If you look at a bunch of mature herd bulls in a field and the horned bulls have their "space" staked out. Whereas, polled bulls seem to like to hang out in a group. Spreading the bulls out, gets more cows covered as they aren't lining up to breed one hot cow while three more over the hill don't get bred.
I have been hit by both horned and polled animals and I swear that polled animals use their heads just like a battering ram. Horned ones seem to take a rake at you. I have heard of more guys getting killed by polled bulls than horned ones. I don't know if that is a breed variable or a horn variable. Guess with those big old horns they can't get you as hard when you are on the ground up against the fence.
I have never seen an eye gouged or a stomach punctured by a horn, guess it could happen, I have just never seen it. I have had bulls and cows go after my horse and they seem to use their horns more like a shovel, to pick your horse up and flip them.
If cows are homozygous polled and are bred to a horned bull, being that horns are recesssive, you shouldn't get any horns. But that would also be in the fairy tale world of all breeds being "clean" and no outside influences have ever been slipped in.
The only thing I know is that people are for the most part scared to death of horns. I have won more money showing horses on horned cattle just because people freak about them.
This is one of those chicken/egg discussions that will go on until the end of time.
