pharo cattle

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Ned Jr - I like your thoughts.
I totally believe there is NO RIGHT COW FOR EVERYONE. It all depends on your environment/management.
Plumber-greg - I think the biggest difference in the tall 7 frame 1500# and the 5.5 frame 1500# is CAPACITY. The 5.5 is "generally" an easier keeper. I had 7 frame (well 8-9) weighing 1800-1900 with lots of capacity and they got along well on our pasture & grasses, breeding back easily in a 60-day calving season (we have GREAT grasses in NY - Clover grows volunteer). But, I really, really, love our 5.5, 1600# cows (in good BCS). Our cows are "smaller" but we're having more problems with some of them fitting thru the chute! Some push their way in, but we don't dare let them out the headgate - open the side.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Iso, I've been trying to drift towards the Oldhie type of cattle. I'm going from 1500 lb. frame 7 to 1500 lb. frame 5.5. The cattle seem to weigh the same, just different type. Something I can't find out, does a deep, wide, big ribbed 1500 lb. BSC 5, but easy to get to 6 or 7, cow eat as much as a tall, thinner, always a 5 score, cow eat? I like the direction I'm going, but I'm also worried about going too far. gs

im bringing my cattle down in frame,,,, i think it got alot to do with the breed.. some are just more efficient...and finding that the efficiency, aint on intake alone

 

[Massey135]

Iso, I've been trying to drift towards the Oldhie type of cattle. I'm going from 1500 lb. frame 7 to 1500 lb. frame 5.5. The cattle seem to weigh the same, just different type. Something I can't find out, does a deep, wide, big ribbed 1500 lb. BSC 5, but easy to get to 6 or 7, cow eat as much as a tall, thinner, always a 5 score, cow eat? I like the direction I'm going, but I'm also worried about going too far. gs

Yes they do. Maintenance calories are based on lbs only. The reason the taller cow always stays a 5 is because the grass she is consuming is not high enough quality as in TDN to gain anymore. Because those flat sided taller cows don' t have enough capacity, they can't consume enough low quality forage to put on excess fat. A 1500lb cow is too big for commercial cow calf operations. THere are genetics out there that will mature at the 1200 range and still wean 650-700lb calves. Maybe its different farther north but you go to any sale barn around here, the average cows sold will be in the low 12s. You'll rarely see a 1500 and never a 1700. And if you're thinking "well one time I saw a 2000lb cow go through" .... my point exactly... one time.

 

[plumber_greg]

Must be a difference somewhere. The 1200 lb. cows around here will occasionally raise a 700lb. calf if all conditions are right, but there isn't a HERD that I know of that will average that. Maybe if the herd is 2 cows and they don't really know how old the calves are. Grass here will raise the cows weight up over that. You'll usually see the 1200s in the sales are the ones with no teeth. Takes a pretty poor condition cow herd here weigh 1200. gs

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Must be a difference somewhere. The 1200 lb. cows around here will occasionally raise a 700lb. calf if all conditions are right, but there isn't a HERD that I know of that will average that. Maybe if the herd is 2 cows and they don't really know how old the calves are. Grass here will raise the cows weight up over that. You'll usually see the 1200s in the sales are the ones with no teeth. Takes a pretty poor condition cow herd here weigh 1200. gs

Exactly!

 

[JSCATTLE]

I must have pretty sorry cows because mine average around 1150 lbs . Last year with the drought the calves averaged 565.

 

[Massey135]

Don't worry JS- I frequent herds all over and I've yet to find one that has average ww of 7month old calves in the 7s. Maybe if they'd keep their cattle in bcs of 7+ then they might start hitting those numbers more often.

The growthiest calves i've seen to date was about a month ago East of Sulphur springs. Guy had a herd of 1/2 angusxhol and 3/4 angus x hol bred to a black simmental. They were monsters. Lots of bone- lots of extension- lots of retail product. On the other hand, I bet they pounded the scale when they were born too.

 

[JSCATTLE]

Don't worry JS- I frequent herds all over and I've yet to find one that has average ww of 7month old calves in the 7s. Maybe if they'd keep their cattle in bcs of 7+ then they might start hitting those numbers more often.

The growthiest calves i've seen to date was about a month ago East of Sulphur springs. Guy had a herd of 1/2 angusxhol and 3/4 angus x hol bred to a black simmental. They were monsters. Lots of bone- lots of extension- lots of retail product. On the other hand, I bet they pounded the scale when they were born too.

I'm not worried . But Its rare to see a cow with a bcs of 5 to 6 here over 1200 lbs . At the sale barn you will see an occasional 1300 lb cow but she has been on feed or winter pasture .

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

JS - you are right. Your area cannot sustain heavy/big cows. And plumber-greg & my herd probably easily maintain at least 1 BCS (maybe 2) higher than your cattle. It's environment. If our cattle went into winter with poor BCS, we couldn't feed them enough to get them into calving condition. Winters are way too harsh. But, summers & fall are lush grasses.
Environment - environment.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

JS - you are right. Your area cannot sustain heavy/big cows. And plumber-greg & my herd probably easily maintain at least 1 BCS (maybe 2) higher than your cattle. It's environment. If our cattle went into winter with poor BCS, we couldn't feed them enough to get them into calving condition. Winters are way too harsh. But, summers & fall are lush grasses.
Environment - environment.

and cattle to match it,,, not like the brahman thread where you take cattle away from their natural enviroment,, and say go to work..... theres a reason for that hump on their back, and it aint for hauling snow shoes :cowboy:

 

[Massey135]

JS - you are right. Your area cannot sustain heavy/big cows. And plumber-greg & my herd probably easily maintain at least 1 BCS (maybe 2) higher than your cattle. It's environment. If our cattle went into winter with poor BCS, we couldn't feed them enough to get them into calving condition. Winters are way too harsh. But, summers & fall are lush grasses.
Environment - environment.

I could have sworn I read you write "it snowed 185 days" one year at your place. How, in an area where you have to supplement the land and feed during those 185+ days, can you say your herd "maintains" a higher BCS?

When I hear people speaking in terms of "maintaining condition" it is generally in the sense of what they can do WITHOUT supplement.

Cattle here are their fattest about DEC 1 and then from there gradually lose condition, calve mid jan-feb, then about march 1 they're at their poorest bcs of the year- spring annuals start coming and they start gaining again. They gain till early july maintain till late sep and gain a little from oct-dec1.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

i cant get my cattle to start gaining back after march 1st ... they can crap through a screen door, till the moisture content in the grass settles down... they look like someone stole their guts at times

 

[JSCATTLE]

I've seen cows hauled from my area down south of San Antonio at 4 years old and 2 years later it looked like they grew 6 inches taller . I guess with the amount of rain we get it leaches our soil pretty bad . I know we can't bring cattle from 200 miles north of us and expect to drop them in a pasture. I've got a friend that tried and his cows like to have starved standing in knee deep grass . It cost him a bunch of money to fatten them so he could sell em .

 

[plumber_greg]

I'm gonna' try to reply to your statements, Massey. Jeanne and I do what we must to "maintain" our cows condition. You ask what they can do with out supplement. Is stockpiled fescue, in my area uptowards of 20% protein, supplmentation? You've never seen how fat a cow can get on stockpiled fescue. The lespedeza and birdsfoot trefoil seeded out is like turning them in to Jim's cornfield. Is that supplementing them? My cattle couldn't survive in N. Texas, but yours couldn't in NW Mo. either.
If it snowed 185 days in NY, and the cows were in poor condition going into that time, there is no way to "maintain" conditon during that time without somekind of help, our land gives us that. Enviroment-enviroment gs

 

[Massey135]

I have cows from deep southwest Texas, Saskatchewan Canada, north Dakota and Kansas. True I know nothing of fescue, nor do I want to- I have tifton 85 in the summer-but what I do have are cows grazing pasture right now with elbon rye and crimson and arrow leaf clover 18" tall. I could easily run 2 units to the acre right now.

Now why couldn't my cows thrive in nw Missouri?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

We don't have snow every day for 185 days, but our snow season is 185 days averaging 120". There is not stockpiling pasture around here. But, our cattle are supplimented with HAY and mineral. Not supplimented with grain as you seem to imply. It is hay grown on our land. Like I said - environment. We do things differently than you, but that doesn't make our cows better or worse than yours. Bottom line - is the BOTTOM LINE. My cows cost an average of just under $500/yr - that's all expenses reported to IRS (cows obsorb calf costs) - fertilizer, fuel, haying expense, mineral, health supplies, vet, equip exp, etc etc. My weaned STEERS averaged $870 last November, so they more than covered the cost of the cow with a bit of PROFIT.
It doesn't make any difference how we get there - we are all striving to make a living with our cattle. And we do that the best way we can in our ENVIRONMENT!!

 

[ABrauny]

We don't have snow every day for 185 days, but our snow season is 185 days averaging 120". There is not stockpiling pasture around here. But, our cattle are supplimented with HAY and mineral. Not supplimented with grain as you seem to imply. It is hay grown on our land. Like I said - environment. We do things differently than you, but that doesn't make our cows better or worse than yours. Bottom line - is the BOTTOM LINE. My cows cost an average of just under $500/yr - that's all expenses reported to IRS (cows obsorb calf costs) - fertilizer, fuel, haying expense, mineral, health supplies, vet, equip exp, etc etc. My weaned STEERS averaged $870 last November, so they more than covered the cost of the cow with a bit of PROFIT.
It doesn't make any difference how we get there - we are all striving to make a living with our cattle. And we do that the best way we can in our ENVIRONMENT!!

Here! Here! :clap:

 

[plumber_greg]

I have cows from deep southwest Texas, Saskatchewan Canada, north Dakota and Kansas. True I know nothing of fescue, nor do I want to- I have tifton 85 in the summer-but what I do have are cows grazing pasture right now with elbon rye and crimson and arrow leaf clover 18" tall. I could easily run 2 units to the acre right now.

Now why couldn't my cows thrive in nw Missouri?[/quote
Sorry, Massey, my grass would, if not kill, ruin your cows. Saw too many times cows like yours grazing stuff like that, I wish I had some, bought and brought to Mo. Two years later half are bred, rough coats, no tails etc. They can't handle the fescue. Anyone that has had experence with it knows this. One year when I was young, I had some extra money, bought a bunch of heifers ready to calve that originated in Montana, brought to Neb. as yearlings. I forget the numbers now, but ended up with less than half bred back. Lesson learned.
So I guess the reason they wouldn't thrive in Mo. is enviroment, our cows are adapted to our enviroment. Enviroment doesn't mean only cold weather, it means the cow does what she needs to do all year long. I don't know what tifton 85 is. gs

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

20% protein fescue, whats it take to grow that??

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

20% protein fescue, whats it take to grow that??

"supplimental input" :lol: