Palpation day (or "Oh crud") revisited

[DavisBeefmasters]

Now dun had a thread he titled awhile ago with a similar title that discussed a heat wave and some open cows that didn't settle during the heat so they came up open.

I was just going to throw it out there to everyone for how they handle palpation day and is it a different scenario for cows vs. calves... for example: the bull is out for 90 days with the heifers and cows and the bull is then pulled...

1. When does the vet come out to palpate? The following weekend, or wait 30 days?
2. If a cow comes up open and lost her calf for whatever reason (breech, pneumonia, unknown) = cull or 2nd chance?
3. If a cow comes up open and has a calf at the side not yet weaned = cull when calf gets weaned or 2nd chance?
4. If a heifer comes up open = cull or 2nd chance?
5. Typically on replacement heifers, what percentage will be "open" after being exposed for 90 days with the bull?

Of course there's a reason I ask, and of course there are different answers depending upon specific conditions... I'm just curious how the members of this board approach the above situations and their experiences.

We palpated this past weekend and I am pondering the results.

 

[milkmaid]

Depends on how good your vet is... but you shouldn't have the herd checked earlier than 35 days past pulling the bulls. What if a cow was bred on the day you pulled the bulls out? there isn't a vet out there good enough to detect a week-old embryo, and very few that can check 'em under 45 days. If you only have an average vet, I'd be waiting until 90 days past breeding season so he at least has a decent chance of being accurate. You won't be shipping the open cows until the calves are weaned anyway.

 

[Workinonit Farm]

#1 The vet will often come out beyond 30 days.
(where I work, he comes out around 21 and ultrasounds)
#2 Not sure if you mean she came up open because she lost the calf, or if she had lost the calf the previous season. If lost in previous season and has come up open, she goes.
#3 and #4 she goes. She has been with the bull for 90 days, ideally enough time for 3 cycles, definitely 2 cycles. Plenty of opportunity to concieve.

I may be a bit harsh, but time is money. The more time put into a cow that isn't producing, is more time and money wasted, and forage that could be going into a productive animal.

Katherine

 

[bigbull338]

id wouldnt palpate till 30 or 50 days after you pull the bull.culling is up to you.because only you know the cows/heifers.an why they may have not weaned a calf.

 

[DavisBeefmasters]

Workinonit

#2 is if she lost her 2007 calf (we have a fall group -- Sept/Oct, and a spring group -- Mar/Apr)... and yes, agreed should have had plenty of time

Milkmaid, our vet is pretty darn good... his average number of days off on calving date last year was a difference of 8 days from actual... he calls them from 30 days to 90 days.

Just FYI -- in re-reading my post, we shoot for a 60 day calving period either Sept/Oct for fall, and Mar/Apr for the spring group. So we turn out the bulls with the fall group from 12/1 to 3/1, and then the "spring" bull turns out at the end of May to end of August for the spring group (seperate pen and very few number of them). So they should have 2 if not 3 cycles with the bull and prior to preg check day...

...it always seems that my "favorites" come up open, and hubby's breed back just fine and dandy... :???:

 

[randiliana]

Now dun had a thread he titled awhile ago with a similar title that discussed a heat wave and some open cows that didn't settle during the heat so they came up open.

I was just going to throw it out there to everyone for how they handle palpation day and is it a different scenario for cows vs. calves... for example: the bull is out for 90 days with the heifers and cows and the bull is then pulled...

1. When does the vet come out to palpate? The following weekend, or wait 30 days?
Well, here, it is I who does the pregchecking. I like to do them about 90 days after we pull the bulls. I could probably get away with 60 days, but I am more comfortable with them a bit farther along.

2. If a cow comes up open and lost her calf for whatever reason (breech, pneumonia, unknown) = cull or 2nd chance?

It depends on the reason, and also on whether she is a 'good' cow or just one of the ones that is just hanging in there. I will give a good cow a second chance, if the dead calf was not her fault, but if it is a poorer cow, it would just be a good chance to cull her. Of course, if the cow comes up dry in the fall, that means cull

3. If a cow comes up open and has a calf at the side not yet weaned = cull when calf gets weaned or 2nd chance?

Cull when the calf is weaned. If she can't breed on time, she isn't worth keeping around.

4. If a heifer comes up open = cull or 2nd chance?

CULL, a heifer is doing nothing other than growing. Heifers should be the easiest animals on the place to get bred. They have nothing draining them. If they come up dry, you can suspect fertility problems. Definitely cull.

5. Typically on replacement heifers, what percentage will be "open" after being exposed for 90 days with the bull?
I expect about 5%. Don't know if that is average or not.

Of course there's a reason I ask, and of course there are different answers depending upon specific conditions... I'm just curious how the members of this board approach the above situations and their experiences.

We palpated this past weekend and I am pondering the results.

 

[I luv herfrds]

We pull the bulls in August and preg check the first of October when we normally ship.
Now if the cow is open we look at her age and history. If she is a young cow that is open for the first time we will normally give her another chance. But if she is and older cow that has been open before she goes.

As for replacement heifers being open, personally, we will normally have just 1 open. This year we ended up with 4 open, which is not normal. Talked to our vet and alot of the neighbors had a larger then normal number of open animals. We figured it was the extreme heat during the summer. We are giving these open heifers another chance, but if open again, they are down the road.
Now that is just us.

 

[TexasBred]

A good vet charging you good money to do rectal palpation should be able to consistently find a 30 day calf and not have to wait until it is 90 days. If he can't he shouldn't even charge you. At 90 days an untrained person can find it with a minimum of instruction.

 

[Jen]

I have the cows and heifers on a 50 day breeding season. Like it alot, that way get most if not all of them calved out before planting. We also have a fall herd and on those we go 60 days, we found they are harder to breed that time of year. We expect a 10% open on the heifers, but we get around a 4-5% open on the cows. #1 For palpating we wait at least 50 days after the bulls are pulled. # 2,3,4 a cow here, goes no matter what the reason if she is open. No second chances, a cow just pays for herself when the prices are low; sometimes not even accomplishing that. No sense in eating hay if she can't make a return. If they lose a calf in the summer, but are bred they stay. I am pretty hard on them, but I also feel we get a good breed back percentage for the amount on of time with the bulls.

 

[bandit80]

I agree with many of Randiliana's responses. I do all of my own preg checking, having taken a class when I was at Kansas State for that purpose.

Now dun had a thread he titled awhile ago with a similar title that discussed a heat wave and some open cows that didn't settle during the heat so they came up open.

I was just going to throw it out there to everyone for how they handle palpation day and is it a different scenario for cows vs. calves... for example: the bull is out for 90 days with the heifers and cows and the bull is then pulled...

1. When does the vet come out to palpate? The following weekend, or wait 30 days?

Should wait about 45 days. This is really about the earliest that pregnancy can be detected. Some can do it sooner, but all should be able to detect pregnancy at this point.

2. If a cow comes up open and lost her calf for whatever reason (breech, pneumonia, unknown) = cull or 2nd chance?

If a cow is open after the breeding season and did not raise a calf, she gets wheels under her so fast she doesn't know what happened. I do not excuse a cow being open for any reason. If she is open after the breeding season, she is gone. Cows that only raise a calf 2 out of 3 years or similar are not the ones that will make you money. The only time I will pasture an open cow is if she lost her calf due to something that wasn't her fault. And only then will I do it if it is a very good cow. Otherwise, I look for an excuse to cull.

3. If a cow comes up open and has a calf at the side not yet weaned = cull when calf gets weaned or 2nd chance?

Wheels again. If a cow can't breed back after a defined breeding season while raising a calf, she isn't ever going to be one of your better producers. Go buy one that will be a good producer.

4. If a heifer comes up open = cull or 2nd chance?

Wheels again. Whether it is a first calf heifer, or replacement heifer.

5. Typically on replacement heifers, what percentage will be "open" after being exposed for 90 days with the bull?

My experiences on a 45 to 60 day period have been around 5%. However, with a 90 day breeding period for heifers, I have also seen 0 many times. Replacement heifers are really better suited for a 45 or 60 day exposure period IMO.

Of course there's a reason I ask, and of course there are different answers depending upon specific conditions... I'm just curious how the members of this board approach the above situations and their experiences.

We palpated this past weekend and I am pondering the results.

The less cows you keep around that aren't raising a calf EVERY year, the more profitable you will be.

 

[DavisBeefmasters]

thanks all!

FYI -- all the above items are being culled immediately (or shipping as soon as we wean their calf)

It was just that 2 of my favorites -- the herd marker "Moonbeam" our only white beefmaster and then my little favorite heifer who's broken front leg I casted both are now in the slaughter pen... it will be a sad day when they leave this afternoon... but an okay day when the check comes on Friday.

 

[luckefarm]

i palpate at 30 days from when the bull came off. open for any reason and they goto town. fertility is the most important trait of any cow

 

[TexasBred]

i palpate at 30 days from when the bull came off. open for any reason and they goto town. fertility is the most important trait of any cow

Never hurts to have old "Bevo" checked from time to time too and make sure he's still up to the task.