open cows may be bull's fault

[City Guy]

In my intro to this site I mentioned that I feel that some (even most) of open cows may be the fault of the bull.
Here's my thinking:

There seems to be a lot of replacement heifers needed all across the country. Why? When we consider that a good cow is capable of producing for 10-15, even twenty years, why do we need 20%-25% replacement each year? Shouldn't the rate be nearer 10%? (If I'm wrong about these % please let me know.) Every breeder I review on the net claims to ruthlessly, unmercifully, cull the open cows and replace them with daughters of their proven producers, yet they seem to need the same number of replacements each year! Why? Shouldn't the cows be improving in fertility over time? Genetics keep getting better, nutrition gets better most years, we have a better understanding of husbandry as time goes by, yet the problem doesn't go away. Why?
Consider for a moment that it might not be the female's fault. Only other factors are the management, the weather and the bull. Most rancher are also the managers so not much hope of changing that and we can't change the weather. That leaves the bull.
"But', you say, 'our bulls pass a BSE so it can't be them". Why not? Do you perform the BSE yourself? Probably not. You cull the cows and select the heifers and you're most likely doing a good job, but you leave the BSE to a technician. Do you understand his protocol? Exactly what tests does s/he perform? What are the pass/fail standards? As I understand it the industry standards have slipped considerably over the decades so that more bulls will qualify. Look in the breed magazines at the "Curve Benders" the "Trait Leaders", the next "Great Thing". How many of them actually have testicles and scrotums that your grandfather would have been proud of? I see nuts that are obviously way too small and/or misshapen and globbed with fat. There seems to be no standard for what age measurements are to be taken and most semen and sale catalogs won't say. As I understand it scrotums should be pendulous so as to keep the sperm at proper temperature, yet so many are not. In addition to motility and morphology does your tech evaluate for primary and secondary abnormal sperm? Does s/he kill, stain and evaluate the sperm on a checkered plate or just use a live sample and guesstimate? Does s/he even try to get a total sperm count per cc of semen? Does s/he tell you it doesn't matter because they know best?
I may be totally wrong about all of this, if so let me know.
Oh Yeah, Have any of you any knowledge of the FFA factor in sperm? Tell me about it, please.

 

[bball]

Had my bull BSE tested this spring. Wasn't a tech that did the assessment, it was the actual veterinarians conducting the assessment. They had 2 vets rotating bulls through at each side of the barn. They performed a physical assessment and 5he of course a specimen assessment. Viewed at least 3 different samples under slide. Averaged the results. I think 70% was the cutoff to pass. My bull passed easy. Vet said he saw a couple with poor tail movement, but not unusual to see and had no problem believing he would get the job done. I trust him. Excellent vet who has always done right by us. I also understand that some bulls can pass a bse, and then 'peter out' through breeding season for whatever reasons-heat, humidity, over-breeding cows in heat, etc. I also think it would be foolish to dismiss the dams role. Nutrition, mineral, age, genetics, body condition have a good deal to do with rebreeding.

 

[ez14]

Every good cattleman looks at every possibility you can be sure that a good cattleman is looking into both the bulls and cows nutrition and management

 

[City Guy]

not that many years ago 80% was minimum to pass. Should we be satisfied with 70%? Do we want Cee and Dee sires leading the charge? I think we need much better! This is a good argument for artificial insemination and line breeding. Only let the best players into the game.
Should breed associations promote "Certification" of bulls and make this a requirement?

 

[TCRanch]

Of course it may be the bull's "fault" but if you have one or two open cows & all the others are bred the bull is not the common denominator.

As far as good producers for 10 - 20 years/the need for replacement heifers, the following thread may interest you:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=103528

 

[cow pollinater]

If you cull for age at around ten years old, which is fairly common and has little to do with fertility, that means you need around 10% replacement just to cover replacing aged cows. You still have to replace the cows that leave for disposition problems, health problems, calving problems, cows that were sold in downsizing during drought, etc.
You are making the assumption that all failures are due to infertility and that is simply not the case. Even if it were the case, infertility is usually about 90% management/environment and only about 10% genetic.
As far as scrotal circumference, it really has little to do with the bulls fertility and only slightly more to do with daughter fertility. Take Limousins, for example. Small testicles were one of the big knocks on the breed for a long time but I've heard first hand from someone that oversees the collection of literally hundreds of bulls of all different breeds that they consistently produce the highest quality semen and can produce it in volumes that most other bulls can't.

 

[ANAZAZI]

I typically run one yearling bull for every ten cows, all of them together in one herd. Most cows mate with many bulls, most bulls mate with many cows. I still cull open or late cows. And scrotal circumference is not a consideration at all, nor is BSE; no one does these things here. We cull because we have better cattle that can take the place of the culls. The only cows that become teens here are cows that could defend their place in the herd. Theory debunked.

 

[City Guy]

Anazazi; If you don't perform a BSE what evaluation do you do prior to breeding? Whatever it is isn't it a BSE? "Breeding service exam" is a term, not a specific procedure because it can include whatever tests the producer wants.

And how short is your calving season? With one bull per 10 cows it must be three weeks max. Few breeders in the world can afford that many bulls unless they are home grown and sold immediately after breeding season. If that is the case how do you keep track of which bull serviced how many cows? As a selling point to prospective buyers.

 

[City Guy]

TCRanch; Thanx for the tip on that thread; it was VERY educational. In my fantasy world I tend to forget about finances and concentrate on genetics and management.

In your example of two opens out of ten--isn't it at least possible that, between those two opens, the bull might be the common denominator? All ejaculations are created equal, especially from a bull that was marginal on his BSE. A more virile bull may have settled one or both.

 

[Caustic Burno]

This thread is richer than three feet up a bulls a$$ in pasture protein.

 

[M-5]

CG in your fantasy world you make a valid point. In the real world it don't always work. First of all if you implemented everything you think you should do, you would be bank broke in about 2 yrs. Obviously you don't realize how slim the margins are.

 

[TCRanch]

TCRanch; Thanx for the tip on that thread; it was VERY educational. In my fantasy world I tend to forget about finances and concentrate on genetics and management.

In your example of

two opens out of ten-

-isn't it at least possible that, between those two opens, the bull might be the common denominator? All ejaculations are created equal, especially from a bull that was marginal on his BSE. A more virile bull may have settled one or both.

I didn't specify "out of ten", I said "all the others" BUT if I only had 10 cows & 2 were open then, yes, that would be a problem & I'd be pointing a finger at my bull.

 

[ANAZAZI]

Anazazi; If you don't perform a BSE what evaluation do you do prior to breeding? Whatever it is isn't it a BSE? "Breeding service exam" is a term, not a specific procedure because it can include whatever tests the producer wants.

And how short is your calving season? With one bull per 10 cows it must be three weeks max. Few breeders in the world can afford that many bulls unless they are home grown and sold immediately after breeding season. If that is the case how do you keep track of which bull serviced how many cows? As a selling point to prospective buyers.

Well, it means Breeding Soundness Exam. I do not have one, what ever you like that to mean.

Our calving season is two months. 80+ percent calve in the first three weeks, then 15% or so in the second three. When cows calve is a cow issue not a bull issue.

The bulls grow up here, yes. They are as expensive as their sisters. They are not sold immediately after breeding; if someone buys them for breeding it is for the next season so no hurry, we calve later than most, otherwise they stay with all the other bulls we did not use until they are ready for slaughter some three or five months later.

And trust me I could not care less how many cows each bull served, usually way more cows than it got pregnant anyway. And before you ask, I do not care how many or which cows a specific bull got pregnant.

 

[ANAZAZI]

In your example of two opens out of ten--isn't it at least possible that, between those two opens, the bull might be the common denominator? All ejaculations are created equal, especially from a bull that was marginal on his BSE. A more virile bull may have settled one or both.

It is completely out of the question that it is a cow problem, the bull can take care of five times as many cows. If they cycled, he has bred them. If he has bred them it is not his fault they are not pregnant. Why would the bull be infertile with some cows while fertile with others? on this vast internet i know only one person with this kind of "logic", and it is just about time for "it" to resurface...

 

[jscunn]

City guy,
Ask you vet or tech how long he will guarantee the results of the bse for.. the honest answer is sight... Out of sight out of guarantee.. a bse is a snapshot of a bulls semen on THAT DAY. He could get sick On the way home..

Used a bull that failed a bse on time on 12 head.. he bred them all in first 21 days.he had 40% normal sperm..

 

[Rafter S]

Anazazi,

You made so many statements in your posts here that I disagree with that I don't know where to start. You seem to be saying that if a cow didn't have a calf on time, or at all, it's always her fault. While that may be mostly true with your management system, it certainly isn't true for everyone's situation. I've known people who buy a bull to use on 20 or 25 cows, and just keep using him for years until they look up one day and realize they've gone a year without getting a new calf. I'm pretty sure that's the bulls fault. (Actually, an argument could be made that it's the owners fault for not getting the bull tested every year, but that's not the point I'm trying to make.)

 

[bball]

CG in your fantasy world you make a valid point. In the real world it don't always work. First of all if you implemented everything you think you should do, you would be bank broke in about 2 yrs. Obviously you don't realize how slim the margins are.

You read my mind.

 

[Jessica06]

not that many years ago 80% was minimum to pass. Should we be satisfied with 70%? Do we want Cee and Dee sires leading the charge? I think we need much better! This is a good argument for artificial insemination and line breeding. Only let the best players into the game.
Should breed associations promote "Certification" of bulls and make this a requirement?

Calling percentages is too subjective to even think about something like certification. And there is no guarantee that a bull tested fertile today will be fertile tomorrow. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the motility of thawed semen in the range of 40%? And linebreeding shouldn't make one bit of difference in how they perform on a BSE, at least enough to matter, so I don't know exactly what your point is?

I think you're overthinking this! Assuming the cows are in proper health and condition to cycle, and a majority of them get bred, it's the cow's fault if she comes up open in my book.

 

[City Guy]

Anazazi] sorry, but I meant to say "all ejaculations are NOT created equal" Am I wrong?

Thanx for explaining your breeding procedures, I've never heard of that system before, is it common in your area or is it your unique plan? I will say, it is close to "Mother Nature's way " and I am for that. How do you decide which bulls to use?

 

[ANAZAZI]

Anazazi] sorry, but I meant to say "all ejaculations are NOT created equal" Am I wrong?

Thanx for explaining your breeding procedures, I've never heard of that system before, is it common in your area or is it your unique plan? I will say, it is close to "Mother Nature's way " and I am for that. How do you decide which bulls to use?

Every ejaculation is equal. The only exception to ths is that old bulls that have not been in use for a while may shoot blanks the first mount, but that sorts itself out if he can mount again. Young bulls keep the seed fresh.

How to know which bulls? All heifers go to breeding, we cull first on disposition (if at all needed) then opens, the ones that need help in any way, the late calvers and so on, then we cull themfor production, worst go first. Cows that survive until the third calf or more, their sons are the breeding bulls, if they look decent.