Nurse cow or not. Thoughts

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I think that @MurraysMutts is right. Confirmed safe in calf, just feed good... 16% protein is about right... you might add a couple pounds corn... cracked or whole... as that is more "fattening food" ... yes it will lower the protein but will up the "carbs" and help her put some meat on the bones...
I would be very hesitant to put the holstein out with the beef cattle... even with the creep feeder.. If he is using it now, I would make sure that the calves can clean up the feed daily, as you said to keep it fresh, and he will use it more and more... sadly, holsteins and dairy animals in general, are bred to "need grain".... they can do good on pasture with some supplementing... but in your case, the more grain he consumes... and yes it will hurt the bottom line but your situation has changed.....the faster he will not "pull her down" since he will be getting more nutrition from the grain and it will supplement and "round out" what the milk is giving him.
He also will not get a "pot gut" or a "hay belly"... and holsteins will get one if they are not getting enough "nutrition"... all the hay in the world is not enough if there is not enough protein and nutrition in it... They will eat and eat as their body is "craving" food...and get a "gut from the quantity.... but straight hay is usually not enough for any calf...
We feed orchard grass hay here as the "good hay" along with some alfalfa that I would give the nurse cows in the barn along with their grain... the pellets are a great way to get higher quality better concentrated feed into the cow and calves...
If the protein gets too high, the cow will get very loose... first thing that dairies will watch and cut back a smidgeon of the protein to get them to firm up the manure some... no sense in letting all the protein go out the back end without being utilized properly in the gut tract...

If the prices are good, I would pull the holstein and sell directly to not lose any weight and condition at the time... but the creep feeder for the calves might just do the trick with the increase of grain you are now giving the cow.
 
farmerjan said:
I think that @MurraysMutts is right. Confirmed safe in calf, just feed good... 16% protein is about right... you might add a couple pounds corn... cracked or whole... as that is more "fattening food" ... yes it will lower the protein but will up the "carbs" and help her put some meat on the bones...
I would be very hesitant to put the holstein out with the beef cattle... even with the creep feeder.. If he is using it now, I would make sure that the calves can clean up the feed daily, as you said to keep it fresh, and he will use it more and more... sadly, holsteins and dairy animals in general, are bred to "need grain".... they can do good on pasture with some supplementing... but in your case, the more grain he consumes... and yes it will hurt the bottom line but your situation has changed.....the faster he will not "pull her down" since he will be getting more nutrition from the grain and it will supplement and "round out" what the milk is giving him.
He also will not get a "pot gut" or a "hay belly"... and holsteins will get one if they are not getting enough "nutrition"... all the hay in the world is not enough if there is not enough protein and nutrition in it... They will eat and eat as their body is "craving" food...and get a "gut from the quantity.... but straight hay is usually not enough for any calf...
We feed orchard grass hay here as the "good hay" along with some alfalfa that I would give the nurse cows in the barn along with their grain... the pellets are a great way to get higher quality better concentrated feed into the cow and calves...
If the protein gets too high, the cow will get very loose... first thing that dairies will watch and cut back a smidgeon of the protein to get them to firm up the manure some... no sense in letting all the protein go out the back end without being utilized properly in the gut tract...

If the prices are good, I would pull the holstein and sell directly to not lose any weight and condition at the time... but the creep feeder for the calves might just do the trick with the increase of grain you are now giving the cow.
Click to expand...
That is very helpful information. Next time to town I will get some extra corn. Thank you. I have been watching her stool to be sure she's doing ok on what she's on.
Good to know about holsteins. I have had graft holsteins before but they were on mom and pasture until older weaning with the rest of the herd then off to market after a good solid wean. I have seen plenty with the pot gut/hay belly. I would like to avoid that if possible for sure. They get docked hard at the auction.
I think I will just wean and ship. I don't normally do that but I think in this case it might be best. Like you said, the situation has changed.
 
I pulled a "Murry". Brought home a 3 day old Angus bull calf!
Backtrack - We have been gone to NY State Fair - 5 days with our show string (did great!!). Anyway, had a guy feeding our freezer steers and supposed to be keeping an eye on our fall calving cows. 1 late & 1 due. Got home and late calver was down pushing. Upon walking out and checking her, she had a swollen, dry tongue sticking out. Ugh! Embryo calf. Put her in barn, got legs up, (calf DOA), got out to the hips. Hip locked. Got cane & twisted while nephew pulled with a puller. Got huge calf out. Red, white face heifer. Would have been easily a $6000 price tag. Double UGH!
Well, a friend that we have been helping the past 2 weeks (severely injured his hand) had a fall cow calf and she was a nut case. He saw nephew's FB post about our bad luck. He called and offered his bull calf to put on our cow because he was shipping his cow.
3 hour round trip, got calf home. Put O-No-More on calf, put with cow in a small pen. She licked the O-No-More off but didn't "love" the calf. Cow was not being at all mean, so we left them alone and proceeded to play catch up on the farm after being gone.
Turned our cameras on in the barn. At 7:30pm calf was hungry and started chasing cow. Cow was not interested. Wasn't mean, but would block the calf with her leg, or block it with her head. Calf was VERY aggressive and persistent. Calf won. Cow stood for him on and off. At midnight, he had free access to the udder. He was bucking and jumping. Great sight.
This is NOT something I do - I will splice a twin, but NEVER bring in an outside calf to the farm during calving season. We are weaning our Jan/Feb calves today or tomorrow, so I will turn the pair out on pasture with the drying up cows after a few days.
 
Jeanne - Simme Valley said:
I pulled a "Murry". Brought home a 3 day old Angus bull calf!
Backtrack - We have been gone to NY State Fair - 5 days with our show string (did great!!). Anyway, had a guy feeding our freezer steers and supposed to be keeping an eye on our fall calving cows. 1 late & 1 due. Got home and late calver was down pushing. Upon walking out and checking her, she had a swollen, dry tongue sticking out. Ugh! Embryo calf. Put her in barn, got legs up, (calf DOA), got out to the hips. Hip locked. Got cane & twisted while nephew pulled with a puller. Got huge calf out. Red, white face heifer. Would have been easily a $6000 price tag. Double UGH!
Well, a friend that we have been helping the past 2 weeks (severely injured his hand) had a fall cow calf and she was a nut case. He saw nephew's FB post about our bad luck. He called and offered his bull calf to put on our cow because he was shipping his cow.
3 hour round trip, got calf home. Put O-No-More on calf, put with cow in a small pen. She licked the O-No-More off but didn't "love" the calf. Cow was not being at all mean, so we left them alone and proceeded to play catch up on the farm after being gone.
Turned our cameras on in the barn. At 7:30pm calf was hungry and started chasing cow. Cow was not interested. Wasn't mean, but would block the calf with her leg, or block it with her head. Calf was VERY aggressive and persistent. Calf won. Cow stood for him on and off. At midnight, he had free access to the udder. He was bucking and jumping. Great sight.
This is NOT something I do - I will splice a twin, but NEVER bring in an outside calf to the farm during calving season. We are weaning our Jan/Feb calves today or tomorrow, so I will turn the pair out on pasture with the drying up cows after a few days.
Click to expand...
That's a fantastic outcome! I am sorry for the loss of your calf. Really glad this situation worked out though. Keep us posted.
 
Jeanne - Simme Valley said:
I pulled a "Murry". Brought home a 3 day old Angus bull calf!
Backtrack - We have been gone to NY State Fair - 5 days with our show string (did great!!). Anyway, had a guy feeding our freezer steers and supposed to be keeping an eye on our fall calving cows. 1 late & 1 due. Got home and late calver was down pushing. Upon walking out and checking her, she had a swollen, dry tongue sticking out. Ugh! Embryo calf. Put her in barn, got legs up, (calf DOA), got out to the hips. Hip locked. Got cane & twisted while nephew pulled with a puller. Got huge calf out. Red, white face heifer. Would have been easily a $6000 price tag. Double UGH!
Well, a friend that we have been helping the past 2 weeks (severely injured his hand) had a fall cow calf and she was a nut case. He saw nephew's FB post about our bad luck. He called and offered his bull calf to put on our cow because he was shipping his cow.
3 hour round trip, got calf home. Put O-No-More on calf, put with cow in a small pen. She licked the O-No-More off but didn't "love" the calf. Cow was not being at all mean, so we left them alone and proceeded to play catch up on the farm after being gone.
Turned our cameras on in the barn. At 7:30pm calf was hungry and started chasing cow. Cow was not interested. Wasn't mean, but would block the calf with her leg, or block it with her head. Calf was VERY aggressive and persistent. Calf won. Cow stood for him on and off. At midnight, he had free access to the udder. He was bucking and jumping. Great sight.
This is NOT something I do - I will splice a twin, but NEVER bring in an outside calf to the farm during calving season. We are weaning our Jan/Feb calves today or tomorrow, so I will turn the pair out on pasture with the drying up cows after a few days.
Click to expand...
Omgoosh Jeanne!
I hated every minute of the first half.
And LOVED LOVED LOVED every minute of the last half!!
 
Sorry about the loss of the ET calf... that really "bites".... but at least you will hopefully save the lactation on the cow so she can get bred back and go from there... and it was great that the neighbor/friend you were helping was able to "help you back"....he will get a good price for the cow with the way the markets are, get a nut case out of his hair, and not risk any other injuries... and the calf ought to grow like gangbusters on your "milky" cow.....
Glad the show went well with having to come home to the not so good situation...
Good luck with the calf... and with the other cow that is due.
 
Double R Ranch said:
That is very helpful information. Next time to town I will get some extra corn. Thank you. I have been watching her stool to be sure she's doing ok on what she's on.
Good to know about holsteins. I have had graft holsteins before but they were on mom and pasture until older weaning with the rest of the herd then off to market after a good solid wean. I have seen plenty with the pot gut/hay belly. I would like to avoid that if possible for sure. They get docked hard at the auction.
I think I will just wean and ship. I don't normally do that but I think in this case it might be best. Like you said, the situation has changed.
Click to expand...
I have grafted holsteins onto a beef cow that has lost a calf in the past... and they do real good and look good and have grown good and continue on fine after weaning at 7-8 months or older... but that is different than what you are thinking so I agree that pulling and selling the calf instead of trying to run one real young out with the other cows even with the creep... would give you back a better return and the calf will not get that gangly, rough look. They just need that extra feed when young if they don't have access to a cow and milk for at least as long as a normal beef calf would before weaning...
 
farmerjan said:
I have grafted holsteins onto a beef cow that has lost a calf in the past... and they do real good and look good and have grown good and continue on fine after weaning at 7-8 months or older... but that is different than what you are thinking so I agree that pulling and selling the calf instead of trying to run one real young out with the other cows even with the creep... would give you back a better return and the calf will not get that gangly, rough look. They just need that extra feed when young if they don't have access to a cow and milk for at least as long as a normal beef calf would before weaning...
Click to expand...
With the increased feed and creep feeder so far we are doing well. Both calves are growing really well and our cow is doing great at the moment. I am hopeful we can keep them on longer than expected. Especially if we get grass this winter.
 
@farmerjan Thanks so much for the corn tip. Our cow is doing fantastic. The calves are growing well. They are now spending a lot more time at the hay bunk (remember we had a fire so no pasture for them currently) and in their creep feeder. They also sneak some of their "moms" grain at feeding. I think we are going to be ok if we can keep up with the feed costs. Calves are now 2 months old. I need to weigh the cow although being pregnant she will be putting on weight that way but from visual it appears she's slowly putting weight back on in the right places. We are very relieved with the current outcome. So thankful to you, @MurraysMutts and others who offered so much advice.
A new question. Dehorning. I had the now weaned heifer done by the vet at around 3 months old. Postponed due to weather. Lets just say it wasn't a good experience and she wasn't actually dehorned. One side had a growing scur, the other had a horn growing. The vet said I could bring her back in and pay for another dehorning which I am not willing to do at this point. I feel like I paid for a "basic" service and didn't get that. Maybe I am wrong because I don't do dehorning. Maybe this is a common problem? Having never dehorned with an iron before (breed polled cattle) I have only done paste a few times on dairy graft calves and am not really a fan of it. Plus at this point they are both way to old for that. Bought a dehorning iron, did a ton of research here, on the internet, watching YouTube videos and having now seen the vet "do it" I needed to get this taken care of. Also talked to a dairyman friend of mine as they dehorn all their calves. I did the steer first and he didn't even flinch. Night and day from the heifer at the vet which seemed odd to me. He didn't skip a beat. As if it was not done. So surprised. Brought the heifer in next, clipped her horn areas and was surprised to see far more horn than expected on one side. She has quite the hairdo that hid how big it was and wasn't a fan of me trying to feel them. Bigger diameter than expected. Proceeded to block and dehorn her and she didn't even seem to feel anything. Again odd since when it was done by the vet she had to be tied up (after being blocked) and she did clearly feel it. Took her a good month to even allow us to touch her head. Putting the halter on was a nightmare so it was left on for a time. Now completed, one side was small and should be no big deal in healing. I hope. The other actually had a decent pointy horn growing. Doing research there was warnings that the horn can come off leaving an open sinus cavity at this age. Has anyone experienced this? If so how long do I need to keep a close watch for that? It's been a week now and so far it looks like I would expect. The center internal horn part hasn't come off yet but the cap did pop off immediately upon dehorning. She is already letting me touch her head more every day. Again I can't explain why the experience is so different from when the vet "did it". Advice on how long it takes to really start healing up? I would assume it's just like a brand as far as the circle around the horn. The steer hasn't show any sign he was even dehorned. I from now on will be doing this myself when they are very young. Anyone have any advice on this? Maybe I am being unfair to the vet? What to watch for and for how long as far as a sinus issue for the heifer? Basically when can I stop worrying about her. 😂 You know I never had this issue with previous cattle but these darn jerseys are something else. They work their way into your heart. At least they are for us.
Thanks in advance!
 
Since they are handleable... just watch and if it comes off, there should be little or no open sinus cavity by getting it young (ish).... If there is... take a little cotton, (I save what comes out of aspirin/tylenol bottles, keep in a plastic container to use when needed) stuff in a little ways, and spray with blue cote or something... and forget it unless you have some fly trouble... This time of year it shouldn't be a problem.... It will come out on it's own.....
Hate to say it but the vet must not have gotten the block done right.... and you did.... ours never seem to bother about it either....
If you breed her AI there are jersey bulls that are polled you could ask about.... but it sounds to me like you have this figured out...

Glad the calves are eating good and that the added corn is helping the cow to regain some condition...
 
farmerjan said:
Since they are handleable... just watch and if it comes off, there should be little or no open sinus cavity by getting it young (ish).... If there is... take a little cotton, (I save what comes out of aspirin/tylenol bottles, keep in a plastic container to use when needed) stuff in a little ways, and spray with blue cote or something... and forget it unless you have some fly trouble... This time of year it shouldn't be a problem.... It will come out on it's own.....
Hate to say it but the vet must not have gotten the block done right.... and you did.... ours never seem to bother about it either....
If you breed her AI there are jersey bulls that are polled you could ask about.... but it sounds to me like you have this figured out...

Glad the calves are eating good and that the added corn is helping the cow to regain some condition...
Click to expand...
Thank you. What kind of timeframe would you be watching for that to happen? I would think it would be within a week or two if it's going to happen in theory? I will save that cotton. Great idea. Sounds like it isn't as "end of their life" emergency as I was reading. Thank you for putting my nerves at ease. I have never done a nerve block in the face before so this was an "adventure". I was nervous. Only done epidurals before. I appreciate the insight. I was thinking she didn't do it right either but how can that be for a dairy vet? The whole thing just makes no sense to me. I feel really bad this heifer had to go through this because I was chicken to do it myself.
I did recently find out some jersey sires are polled. We are looking into who we can get that is polled for the next go rounds. Only have a few straws left of what we are using now. He is horned though. I wasn't aware of polled jerseys when I purchase this cane. The dairy semen stuff is quite different from beef. I am trying to figure it out. I also just recently learned they have cheese numbers which will be great for us since we make a lot of cheese.
 
MurraysMutts said:
That's what my vet does with the cotton. Except he cuts the horns. (Bigger animals)
Then he uses the electric iron afterwards to cauterize? maybe??
Click to expand...
When this heifer was done the first time she scooped the horn out or so we thought till she got home and I noticed a decent amount of horn was still there under the spray. Then she used a hot iron to cauterize the area. This is part of why I am so confused as to how she had nearly an entire horn still and a scur. I feel like if she had just used the dehorning iron like I did this time it would have been successful the first time. I am new to this dehorning so I don't really know how each process works. She absolutely did not get around the entire horn on the one that has grown the most. Now that I have seen what this iron does I know that. I was able to go back to pictures I took to send to the vet at the time to tell that as well.
 
MurraysMutts said:
That's what my vet does with the cotton. Except he cuts the horns. (Bigger animals)
Then he uses the electric iron afterwards to cauterize? maybe??
Click to expand...
Same for us... usually if we have to dehorn, they are bigger/older ones we have bought and they get cut cauterized and cotton stuffed in, sprayed and done. It is alot less traumatic if they are blocked first too....
 
YES! I have 6 September calves on the ground! With "Lil Robert" the adopted (now castrated) Angus calf, we have 3 steers and 3 RED heifers! 2 solid red and 1 white face heifer. We always just have a handful for Sept/Oct calving. This year we had 8. 1 is due Oct 18? and 1 not due until Nov 28. She was "bred" as far as we knew but came back in (obsorbed?) So, we decided to breed her for a late calf and will slide her into the Jan calving next year.
So, 2 left to calve for 'fall".
 
Thought I would do an update: We are still pouring the feed due to the lack of pasture but everyone is doing well. Sure will be glad when this fire nightmare is over and we have pasture back.
Weighed the calves tonight since I had to get a weight on a new beef calf anyways and the holstein steer is now 320#'s and the jersey/angus heifer is 314#'s at 3 1/2 months old. Not bad all things considered. Our cow is maintaining ok still. We are still getting 1 1/2 to 2 gallons a milking (1 time weekly) with 12 hours separation while leaving a bit for the calves so her production is declining. Dehorning on both calves was completely successful. The calves are using the creep feeder and eating plenty of hay. The plan as of this moment is to leave them both on another month or so then wean the steer and turn him out with our beef steers then wean the heifer when our cow is due to dry up pre calving. My hope is that will slow production by weaning one of the two calves then when we take the remaining calf off she will dry up easily. Of course the heifer may take up for both.... Anyone have an opinion on this theory?
 

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