Nurse cow or not. Thoughts

[Double R Ranch]

I often skin out the dead calf... but I just skin it in a "tube" and can slide the skin right on the new calf and with the cow licking on it, the skin gets "licked off" in a day or 2 and it works good...no trying to tie it on the calf... but this cow had seemed so accepting of the new calf without the skinning that I thought she was going to do fine. Plus the dead calf was very small and this calf is quite good sized. It was just weird that she would talk to it and let it go right on her and being a beef cow didn't even mind when I put the calf right up to her and got it on the teats the first couple times... her teats were rather large.... but then when she decided she was tired of being in the small barn and lot, she took on a whole different personality...
Oh well, they will keep you guessing.

Have no idea if we will keep the heifer for a cow. I usually do not make them a nurse cow but let them run with the beef cows and their own calf will use what it can and then their milk production will slow to have enough for the calf. I have caught a few calves stealing off a crossbred cow like that in the field... when we raise a group of heifers together, they will get bred together, and calve together... and I am often surprised that after a couple weeks, you will see 2 nursing one cow and then later 2 or 3 on another cow... they seem to co-raise calves. As long as I don't see any "adults" nursing others, I don't care if they co-parent or not. I did have 2 that became problems with sucking other cows in the group and used nose weaners and a couple other things... one I just sold as I could not break her, the other went with other cows and they did not tolerate it and have never seen her do it again...

And it depends on the calf's disposition as it grows. If they become very friendly, then sometimes I will take the time to give them a 2nd calf to raise and let them run with the beef cows with "twins"... but the grass has to be very good to not supplement with some grain because 2 calves pulling on a 1/2 dairy cow will have her losing condition and they get thinner than a beef cow and often do not breed back as easily because they are putting more into the milk than they are into getting their condition back to cycle.

Because this was bought cow that was very good dispositioned, I just didn't expect her to not mother the calf after a few days of totally accepting the calf to nurse in the small barn lot. Since I have no idea of her background, I just went with what felt right and the initial acceptance of the calf made me think she would do fine. Kinda fooled me, but it follows around and seems to be determined to make sure it gets to drink.

Skin in a tube. You have me curious for sure. I've only done a full skin and tied it on before. I haven't seen one do that either. Usually once they've claimed them it's good to go. Interesting. We have had co raising before and don't intervene as long as the cow is staying in good condition.
We have had grown cows suck other cows on occasion over the years. Have resorted to crown weaning rings installed for longer term. Eventually took them out with no further issues. We have never had one nurse herself although I have heard stories of it happening before. Never seen it for myself.
Cows always keep us guessing don't they? Just when you think you got something figured out someone throws a kink in it.

 

[Double R Ranch]

I have also found that if you put BOTH calves on the same side... with the one she claims closer to her, that she will turn around and smell that calf and will then mostly ignore that there are 2 calves on her and the other one is able to nurse. Both sides often confuses a cow.... yes the calf is closer to the leg to get kicked, but if the one she "claims" is closer to her and she can turn her head and smell it and lick it, the 2nd calf doesn't seem to trigger a "rejection" as often. That is when they often learn to sneak in on the back of the cow too... easier access to the teats.

Good point! I have noticed this before in the field with "milk thieves". Good thing to keep in mind for sure.

 

[farmerjan]

To skin in one piece without cutting down the belly...I hang it from the hind legs from the tractor bucket or on a gate or something.... I just cut all around the back legs, tail. etc and "peel the skin down" and when it gets to the front legs, cut across and around the neck and head so it just peels off them. Used to skin the muskrats like that when my brother messed up his shoulder as a kid and he paid me to skin them so they could go on a stretcher...
Then I pop the new calf's head in, pull both front feet through... and slide the skin right on them.... like a tube.... it only goes so far and sometimes will slit it a bit if the new calf is a bull so it can pee without getting caught up in the skin... but the cow will go to licking on the new calf, licking the skin... and as she gets "both skins" taste, and they do like to lick new calves alot... the skin will get bunched up and often I will find it on the floor of the barn/pen and the cow says this baby smells right, I have licked it to be sure... and it is hers. Basically it just saves trying to tie on the skin and it takes a little longer for the cow to lick it and the calf to squirm out of it than if tied on... and you know how they can get anything off if they want to.... I never could get a tied on skin to stay for more than a few hours... so this takes care of that. I have only had to "slide off" one skin from a calf , and the cow had accepted the calf fine... 48 hours is usually more than enough time and it is often off by then.

 

[Double R Ranch]

To skin in one piece without cutting down the belly...I hang it from the hind legs from the tractor bucket or on a gate or something.... I just cut all around the back legs, tail. etc and "peel the skin down" and when it gets to the front legs, cut across and around the neck and head so it just peels off them. Used to skin the muskrats like that when my brother messed up his shoulder as a kid and he paid me to skin them so they could go on a stretcher...
Then I pop the new calf's head in, pull both front feet through... and slide the skin right on them.... like a tube.... it only goes so far and sometimes will slit it a bit if the new calf is a bull so it can pee without getting caught up in the skin... but the cow will go to licking on the new calf, licking the skin... and as she gets "both skins" taste, and they do like to lick new calves alot... the skin will get bunched up and often I will find it on the floor of the barn/pen and the cow says this baby smells right, I have licked it to be sure... and it is hers. Basically it just saves trying to tie on the skin and it takes a little longer for the cow to lick it and the calf to squirm out of it than if tied on... and you know how they can get anything off if they want to.... I never could get a tied on skin to stay for more than a few hours... so this takes care of that. I have only had to "slide off" one skin from a calf , and the cow had accepted the calf fine... 48 hours is usually more than enough time and it is often off by then.

I will absolutely attempt this next time I need to do this. Genius! Thank you for explaining in detail. I usually have to cut the hide off when tied on.

 

[Double R Ranch]

It's official! She's now got two calves of "her own"! Will keep them in the corral a few more days then give access to a small pasture by day. Eventually her normal pasture. She is now allowing them to nurse when they want and separately if they choose. Will turn them out once I feel the calves are ready enough. The holstein is still a little "slow".

 

[MurraysMutts]

It's official! She's now got two calves of "her own"! Will keep them in the corral a few more days then give access to a small pasture by day. Eventually her normal pasture. She is now allowing them to nurse when they want and separately if they choose. Will turn them out once I feel the calves are ready enough. The holstein is still a little "slow".

Ain't it a wonderful feeling!!

I love it!

 

[Double R Ranch]

Ain't it a wonderful feeling!!

I love it!

I am way too happy it's worked out. Not sure why. She's happy which makes me happy. These dairy cows are something else.

 

[Double R Ranch]

Mom has taken the calves as her own completely even now calling to them and cleaning them both.
The steer has consistently had a concerning umbilical which has been treated twice now. It is better but not gone yet. Then his castration got infected. I usually don't castrate this time of year in the heat for just this reason. Then the power company had a failure and lit our winter pastures on fire. It was a wind driven fire. All our winter feed is gone for the most part. Lot of fence damage. The pastures our dairy cows graze is gone. So we are hay feeding our dairy cows completely now. I am noticing a decline in this cows milk production fairly quickly. I am concerned she can maintain her condition, her developing calf and these two graft calves now. This is her first lactation anyways. I don't want to wait until she is overly thin. So we need to make some decisions. One calf may need to be weaned (will most likely wean the steer and turn him out to pasture with the beef herd) far sooner than expected. I put out the creep feeder for them (now a month old) and they are starting to be seen eating the grain/alfalfa pellet mix. They are also starting to work on hay a bit. I just don't know that it will be enough as far as the cow is concerned. The plan was to leave these calves on this cow for 6 months till dry up time. If we must wean one early what would the earliest you would even consider it in this case? I know cow condition etc is a factor but what age would you feel safe to wean early? 3 months? Seems some who do the nurse cow thing wean at 3 months to replace with a new set? I don't know if she will be ok doing 2 calves for two more months on hay. We are watching closely. Trying to have some options in mind before it becomes necessary.

 

[MurraysMutts]

Is the cow on hay only???
No way I'd try that with 2 calves. If the calves are eating feed well, u could easily pull one but you'd HAVE to feed it!

I'd put her in her own lot/area/ acre or two with her 2 calves and feed her some good stuff personally. She should probly be getting fed some anyway. Especially a first calf heifer raising a 2nd set of calves.

But believe me. I KNOW a cow can have a calf in poor condition. Poor Eleanor is struggling a bit but she IS putting some condition back on after calving while raising calves. She was not supposed to be bred. My plan was to let her raise the ones that were on her and stick her with my bull. At this point I don't think she is gonna breed in a timely manner.

Feed her good and count your blessings my friend. One way or another your gonna have to feed something. Cow or calf or whichever.

 

[Double R Ranch]

Is the cow on hay only???
No way I'd try that with 2 calves. If the calves are eating feed well, u could easily pull one but you'd HAVE to feed it!

I'd put her in her own lot/area/ acre or two with her 2 calves and feed her some good stuff personally. She should probly be getting fed some anyway. Especially a first calf heifer raising a 2nd set of calves.

But believe me. I KNOW a cow can have a calf in poor condition. Poor Eleanor is struggling a bit but she IS putting some condition back on after calving while raising calves. She was not supposed to be bred. My plan was to let her raise the ones that were on her and stick her with my bull. At this point I don't think she is gonna breed in a timely manner.

Feed her good and count your blessings my friend. One way or another your gonna have to feed something. Cow or calf or whichever.

Thank you.
She was on pasture (pulled for grafting then was supposed to go back out), hay was offered but not much consumed while on pasture and she is grained twice daily.
Unfortunately there is no area she can go that has pasture now. She can't be with the beef herd. Everything else is burned or down to bare ground. She is on a few acres now but it's bare ground. She's stuck strictly on grain, pellets and hay for now. It's going to get very costly. Up until now she has been managing well on pasture with plenty of milk to spare. This was a hit we did not expect or need right now. They were just ready to go back out to pasture when the fire hit. That is a good point. Going to have to feed someone.
I have been following Eleanors story. That was quite a surprise. I am glad she's putting condition back on. Are you graining her heavy?

 

[farmerjan]

I was feeding my nurse cow with 3 calves on her 5 gallons grain a day with just hay and they did fine. The calves were eating some also... I fixed it to where they would be able to do some creep feeding and put a 1/2 bucket in there at a time; and they soon learned to go through the creep gate and go eat. I would pull the one that seemed to be doing the best if it looked like she did not have enough milk at about 3 months old.
Sorry about the pasture and fences and all with the fire but thankful no cows were in there or injured. She will probably not breed back as soon, if she is not gaining weight . But after working so hard to get the calves on her, I would just up her grain... and make sure the calves can get to it to creep feed and they will be easier to wean and not lose weight after.

If the prices are good there, I would pull the one most likely to bring a good price while it is still looking good and healthy, and sell it right then.....because pulling it and wanting it to run with the beef cattle will definitely cause it to lose some weight and look a little "rough".... Otherwise, calves under 5-6 months need grain when you wean them.

 

[Mountaintown Creek Ranch]

To skin in one piece without cutting down the belly...I hang it from the hind legs from the tractor bucket or on a gate or something.... I just cut all around the back legs, tail. etc and "peel the skin down" and when it gets to the front legs, cut across and around the neck and head so it just peels off them. Used to skin the muskrats like that when my brother messed up his shoulder as a kid and he paid me to skin them so they could go on a stretcher...
Then I pop the new calf's head in, pull both front feet through... and slide the skin right on them.... like a tube.... it only goes so far and sometimes will slit it a bit if the new calf is a bull so it can pee without getting caught up in the skin... but the cow will go to licking on the new calf, licking the skin... and as she gets "both skins" taste, and they do like to lick new calves alot... the skin will get bunched up and often I will find it on the floor of the barn/pen and the cow says this baby smells right, I have licked it to be sure... and it is hers. Basically it just saves trying to tie on the skin and it takes a little longer for the cow to lick it and the calf to squirm out of it than if tied on... and you know how they can get anything off if they want to.... I never could get a tied on skin to stay for more than a few hours... so this takes care of that. I have only had to "slide off" one skin from a calf , and the cow had accepted the calf fine... 48 hours is usually more than enough time and it is often off by then.

Off subject...@Farmerjan
" Used to skin muskrats" .
That was my first paying job, trapping.
I used to get $7 each in 1974ish.

 

[MurraysMutts]

Thank you.
She was on pasture (pulled for grafting then was supposed to go back out), hay was offered but not much consumed while on pasture and she is grained twice daily.
Unfortunately there is no area she can go that has pasture now. She can't be with the beef herd. Everything else is burned or down to bare ground. She is on a few acres now but it's bare ground. She's stuck strictly on grain, pellets and hay for now. It's going to get very costly. Up until now she has been managing well on pasture with plenty of milk to spare. This was a hit we did not expect or need right now. They were just ready to go back out to pasture when the fire hit. That is a good point. Going to have to feed someone.
I have been following Eleanors story. That was quite a surprise. I am glad she's putting condition back on. Are you graining her heavy?

I'm in about the same situation you are unfortunately. But not quite. Her acre is done. All dried up and getting crispy. Big Sexy has injured his right rear wheel. I put him in with her after vet treatment but I don't think he's gonna turn around. We will see. I've got about 3 more acres she can go on that's seperate from the main herd. She's penned right now for another week or so. While on grass she was getting about 12lbs a day and good grass with fresh cut crabgrass hay. Shes now got her own calf and 2 new ones. I've upped her to about 18-20lbs fed twice a day. She's making PLENTY milk, but I want her to gain. It's a slow process getting them to gain with calves on them and pastures deteriorating.

 

[farmerjan]

Off subject...@Farmerjan
" Used to skin muskrats" .
That was my first paying job, trapping.
I used to get $7 each in 1974ish. View attachment 34298

Yep, just like that. I was about 13, brother dislocated his shoulder in a wrestling thing at school... he paid me either .50 or .75 each to skin them...this would have been mid-late 60's.... I got pretty good and fast at doing them...
Same principle with the calves... so it stays all in one piece to slide on the calf and then no tying and all that... 2-3 days at most and off it comes and cow is happy with HER baby...

 

[Double R Ranch]

I was feeding my nurse cow with 3 calves on her 5 gallons grain a day with just hay and they did fine. The calves were eating some also... I fixed it to where they would be able to do some creep feeding and put a 1/2 bucket in there at a time; and they soon learned to go through the creep gate and go eat. I would pull the one that seemed to be doing the best if it looked like she did not have enough milk at about 3 months old.
Sorry about the pasture and fences and all with the fire but thankful no cows were in there or injured. She will probably not breed back as soon, if she is not gaining weight . But after working so hard to get the calves on her, I would just up her grain... and make sure the calves can get to it to creep feed and they will be easier to wean and not lose weight after.

If the prices are good there, I would pull the one most likely to bring a good price while it is still looking good and healthy, and sell it right then.....because pulling it and wanting it to run with the beef cattle will definitely cause it to lose some weight and look a little "rough".... Otherwise, calves under 5-6 months need grain when you wean them.

Thank you for the advice. I did just add a creep feeder and they are starting to use it. I am also only putting a few pounds in it at a time. Figured they will be slow to use it so didn't want it to get dried out and stale. Want to encourage them using it. Our cow is on 15#'s a day of dairy grain, 15#'s a day of alfalfa pellets and free choice forage hay currently along with minerals/salt. Upped from 10#'s of each since the fire.
Thank you. We are extremely Blessed that no animals or structures were injured/damaged. It was a struggle at times with the cattle but we were very lucky.
She is already bred back 3 months as of now. Part of why I am trying not to let her get leaner if possible. She was maintaining great and had plenty of milk up until loosing the pasture.
Currently 350#'s is the money for the holstein steer. He is growing well so far and seems to be spending the most time in the creep feeder. Haven't raised a lot of holsteins so now sure how fast he could make it to 350#'s. If weaning him early I could always move the creep feeder out to where the beef herd is so he still would have access to grain.
Really appreciate being able to bounce all this off y'all and so greatly appreciate the time y'all take to offer advice. I am learning so much about the abilities of dairy cows. Night and day to beef cattle. Will update as this goes on. Thanks again!

 

[Double R Ranch]

I'm in about the same situation you are unfortunately. But not quite. Her acre is done. All dried up and getting crispy. Big Sexy has injured his right rear wheel. I put him in with her after vet treatment but I don't think he's gonna turn around. We will see. I've got about 3 more acres she can go on that's seperate from the main herd. She's penned right now for another week or so. While on grass she was getting about 12lbs a day and good grass with fresh cut crabgrass hay. Shes now got her own calf and 2 new ones. I've upped her to about 18-20lbs fed twice a day. She's making PLENTY milk, but I want her to gain. It's a slow process getting them to gain with calves on them and pastures deteriorating.

Really sorry to hear Big Sexy got injured. Please keep us posted. Sorry if I missed it on a thread.
Good to hear how much you are feeding her. Is it dairy grain or something else? I was concerned I may be over feeding her on the grain front. She barely eats alfalfa so it was recommended to use alfalfa pellets in her grain by a dairy friend of ours. It has worked well and up until being off pasture she's has been maintaining well. Tons of milk. That was the reason we chose two small calves and planned a possible "early" wean if necessary when they got bigger as she is pregnant as well. First lactation and all. Thanks again for the advice and info!

 

[Double R Ranch]

Off subject...@Farmerjan
" Used to skin muskrats" .
That was my first paying job, trapping.
I used to get $7 each in 1974ish. View attachment 34298

That's a muskrat?! I had no idea they were so big! What a cool photo!

 

[MurraysMutts]

Really sorry to hear Big Sexy got injured. Please keep us posted. Sorry if I missed it on a thread.
Good to hear how much you are feeding her. Is it dairy grain or something else? I was concerned I may be over feeding her on the grain front. She barely eats alfalfa so it was recommended to use alfalfa pellets in her grain by a dairy friend of ours. It has worked well and up until being off pasture she's has been maintaining well. Tons of milk. That was the reason we chose two small calves and planned a possible "early" wean if necessary when they got bigger as she is pregnant as well. First lactation and all. Thanks again for the advice and info!

Your feed regimen sounds good to me!

No one around here has any idea what a dairy ration is. I'm feeding a mix of 14% creep and honey grain which is 9% sometimes I use 20%cubes instead of the creep. She's definitely gaining here but it's slow. Her manure is "right"

Right now she's getting my best Bermuda hay while penned.

 

[Double R Ranch]

Your feed regimen sounds good to me!

No one around here has any idea what a dairy ration is. I'm feeding a mix of 14% creep and honey grain which is 9% sometimes I use 20%cubes instead of the creep. She's definitely gaining here but it's slow. Her manure is "right"

Right now she's getting my best Bermuda hay while penned.

Thanks. The dairy grain is 16% dairy grain along with the alfalfa pellets. We don't have access to Bermuda hay sadly.

 

[MurraysMutts]

Thanks. The dairy grain is 16% dairy grain along with the alfalfa pellets. We don't have access to Bermuda hay sadly.

Knowing what your feeding now, and knowing she's 3 months safe with calf, I'd dang sure just feed the cow and provide best hay ya got. I bet she will do just fine for a couple more months!

What you think @farmerjan ?