need help:bottle baby with swollen leg

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Personally I like penicillin but still don't use a lot of it. When I do I give them a real heavy load of it tho.

When we were pasture cowboying, our standard treatment rate was triple dose. This was partly due to the chance that you may not find a calf again the next day. I like loading doses (double rate, triple rate for extreme cases) followed by slightly above label usage. Its given me excellent results. Liquimycin I do find is losing its effectiveness, however the only things I ever have need to treat (scours, pneumonia) are better treatable with NuFlor and Micotil. Although we did have a scours run through here last year that was only treatable with Liquimycin.

Rod

 

[angie1]

Its all about balance, Alice. Recent studies show that probiotic treatments are completely worthless without the necessary electrolyte balance in the system. My vet showed me a study where they took a healthy cow and stuffed probiotics in her. While her levels TEMPORARILY went up, they went right back to baseline in a few short hours, disproving many of the claims by probiotic manufacturers and their boosters.
You cannot study results on a healthy cow and transfer them onto a sick one, it invalidates the study. Of course they went up then back to base line. Her base line was healthy/normal. In a sick calf, they would be depleted. That study disproves nothing except that it is a waste of money to give probiotics to healthy animal. I am sure we agree on that.

Since this calf has been ill and been subjected to Nuflor, its electrolytes are likely imbalanced. Probiotics won't do a bit of good until some semblance of balance is restored in the system. Newbie will simply be pouring money down the toilet. Personally I believe probiotics are a waste of money. As the calf heals and balance is restored to the digestive tract, the body will bring rumen activity back to a normal state all on its own, assuming adequate nutrition.

I agree that electrolytes should be given to an animal during illness. Dehydration has a signaifcant negative impact on the animal. But nutrition must be considered. If the calf is not getting proper nutrition ~ or is unable to utilize the nutrition it is given, it will not be able to pull up. The faster you can pull an animal back out of illness,the greater the chance of them surviving and being viable members of the herd. Thus probiotics are a benefit. You speak of expense ~ one tube costs $7 and has at least 4 uses in it. Pretty cheap insurance if you ask me.

Can someone explain to me what you hobby guys have against Penicillin and the older drugs? For something minor like navel ills, 99.9% of calves respond to it. All firing florfenicols and the newer drugs at sick animals is doing is building resistance to those new drugs.

Rod you were the one who suggested loading that calf with antibiotics without confirmation of illness. That is a practice that has contributed to resistance as much as anything else (under dosage or discontinuing too soon). Injuries do not require antibiotics, there is no illness present in an injury. We "hobby guys" treat aggressively and directly ~ with consideration given to the overall well being of the animal. Our herds are small ~ one calf, one cow is a greater loss in percentage. That being said ~ I would agree that there are cases where Pen is an effective initial intervention, I just choose not to use it. If my animals develope say ~ hoof rot or an eye infection for example, I would consider Pen as a treatment option.
Rod

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

You cannot study results on a healthy cow and transfer them onto a sick one, it invalidates the study. Of course they went up then back to base line. Her base line was healthy/normal. In a sick calf, they would be depleted. That study disproves nothing except that it is a waste of money to give probiotics to healthy animal. I am sure we agree on that.

You miss the point of the study: Bacterial rumen are in a balance with the rest of the stomach contents. Until you restore the rest of the balance, its a waste of time to put the probiotics into the calf.

But nutrition must be considered. If the calf is not getting proper nutrition ~ or is unable to utilize the nutrition it is given, it will not be able to pull up.

Never, not once, in 30 years, have I seen a cured calf that wasn't able to pull up with proper nutrition. Pull up faster with probiotics? Perhaps, but its certainly not even remotely necessary to the survival of the calf.

Rod you were the one who suggested loading that calf with antibiotics without confirmation of illness. That is a practice that has contributed to resistance as much as anything else (under dosage or discontinuing too soon).

There are NO studies that support what you've just said. Loading doses have been used for years in human medicine SPECIFICALLY to prevent resistance. Under dosage, early discontinuance, and IMPROPER MEDICINAL USE (such as NuFlor for navel ill) are why we're seeing resistance to the newer drugs. As far as confirmation of illness, I had it with Newbie's reference to navel ill and my own knowledge that NuFlor had not killed off the bacteria responsible for it. Please refer back to my earlier response.

Newbie, good luck with your critter.

Rod

 

[angie1]

She is a little wobbly on her feet and probably got stepped on in the pen as her left hock and knee have always been large.Now the one left front leg has swollen right up to her elbow and she can hardly walk or get up. Molly is still eating. She went from being fine yesterday to dead lame today. I also discovered a little cut on her knee.

Statements made by newbie in this original post indicate that injury to the calf was a possibility. Naval ill is a possibility. You cannot confirm based on what was stated and neither can I. The best we can do is guess. I am not, nor have I said I was against loading doses, I agree they are a good idea in the initial shot. I am not against using Pen or LA. I am against using antibiotics when there is not a confirmed illness/infection. As far as I am concerned ~ that is an improper use of medications. I am against not using anti inflammatories when an animal is suffering to the extent that it is unable to get up on its own, shivering or off feed.

As far as probiotics ~ we are dancing in circles, and are left with agree to disagree.
I will continue to use and recommend them.

 

[Alice]

She is a little wobbly on her feet and probably got stepped on in the pen as her left hock and knee have always been large.Now the one left front leg has swollen right up to her elbow and she can hardly walk or get up. Molly is still eating. She went from being fine yesterday to dead lame today. I also discovered a little cut on her knee.

Statements made by newbie in this original post indicate that injury to the calf was a possibility. Naval ill is a possibility. You cannot confirm based on what was stated and neither can I. The best we can do is guess. I am not, nor have I said I was against loading doses, I agree they are a good idea in the initial shot. I am not against using Pen or LA. I am against using antibiotics when there is not a confirmed illness/infection. As far as I am concerned ~ that is an improper use of medications. I am against not using anti inflammatories when an animal is suffering to the extent that it is unable to get up on its own, shivering or off feed.

As far as probiotics ~ we are dancing in circles, and are left with agree to disagree.
I will continue to use and recommend them.

:nod: :nod: :nod:

Alice

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

I am against using antibiotics when there is not a confirmed illness/infection.

So how do you plan on confirming there is an illness? Now we're back to my earlier post: Taking temperature isn't going to show you what you want to see. Only cultures will confirm that the calf is ill. So do you think its wise to discontinue an antibiotic regimen just to wait for cultures to grow (depending on the type of illness, up to 2 weeks)?

Rod

 

[angie1]

No ~ to confirm illness all you have to do is RULE OUT injury. That is why I said call the vet, would just take a quick exam. If you got them, you have to take care of them, and calling the vet when you are in over your head is part of that.

 

[newbie]

Sorry, I have been too busy working to post. Thanks for all the replies. I have finally gotten a vet for my 3 cows. I am so relived! And he was very cheap too. Molly has joint ill after she had the navel ill. She is on 5cc of pen g for five days and half a cc of banamine for three days. She was not doing bad until today when she would not drink her electrolytes. My husband tubed her for the elecrolytes in the morning and she had two litres of milk today. When I fed tried to feed her the last bottle of milk around 9 pm she was not interested in the bottle (she is very suspicious of electro) which was a first. Her nose was a little dry also. She is closed up in her nice little clean dry shed. The main reason she got navel ill was that she was born in a feedlot and was filthy dirty when we got her. I now know that when I have a sick calf to wack the penicillin and electrolytes into her and go from there. I had no clue that you could give 5cc of pen for 5 days, so now that I know I might have better luck next time. I have been trying to get a tube of probiotic but have had no luck so I dump some yogurt in Molly's bottle. I have been working so do not know if she is better today than yesterday. Thanks again for all of your input. Cheers

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Newbie, get that calf out of the shed, unless its really wet outside. Calves need sunlight to thrive, just like anything else. If you have some fence panels, set them up outside the door of the shed and let the calf wander in and out at its heart's content. Personally, I'd keep it locked out of the shed during the daylight hours and make it stay in the light.

As for the rest of you, I hate to say I told you so. Wait, no I don't: I told you so.

Rod

 

[angie1]

As for the rest of you, I hate to say I told you so. Wait, no I don't: I told you so.

Rod

Bravo Rod!! :clap:
Saw this last night and thought I would let you come on and dance befor responding. :lol2:
You were right and deserve the chance to say so. :nod:

I will not go into how no one else was wrong as we did not say, or even imply, it was not an illness. I will not point out how this did not take a 2 week culture ~ just a simple exam BY A VET to CONFIRM illness before determining a treatment.

Newbie ~ Rod is also right in getting that calf outside. Barring injury, it should not be confined to a pen. Get it in the sunshine and let it do its thing.

PS ~ don't forget the probios! :lol2:

Rod ------> :tiphat:

 

[newbie]

Molly only gets locked up in her pen at dark and is outside for the day. She is still drinking her bottles of milk but would not drink the any of the five packs of electrolytes so we tubed them into her. Her last day for Banamine was sat night and she is missing it this morning. She is moving slow and was a little fussy with her bottle. Her joint ill has travelled to the other knee and I noticed that she now has scabs on both knees and the hair is gone. She is wandering around the yard still. Tonight is her last shot of 5cc of pen. I am not looking forward to the next few days. Will call the vet today to see if he can suggest anything else. Thanks for all the replies. Think I will post a new topic on joint ill and see if anyone has had any luck with it. She is so adorable but I hate to think of her in pain. Thanks for the replies. Cheers :tiphat:

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

This calf was born in a feedlot. Do you know for sure if it was given a good shot of colostrum? Often times calves don't get their first suck in a feedlot situation. If this calf didn't get its first shot of colostrum, there is no hope for it.

Since the Penicillin didn't work out for you, I'd give liquicmycin a go next.

Rod