need help:bottle baby with swollen leg

[newbie]

I have a calf that is three weeks old that went through navel ill and a weeks worth of Nuflor and was doing pretty good. She is a Black Angus that is quite large, pulled her mothers insides out when she was born in a feedlot. She is a little wobbly on her feet and probably got stepped on in the pen as her left hock and knee have always been large. Now the one left front leg has swollen right up to her elbow and she can hardly walk or get up. Molly is still eating. She went from being fine yesterday to dead lame today. I also discovered a little cut on her knee. Gave her a double shot of penicillin and one aspirin. Tried to get some Neox (tetracycline) down her in a bottle but she did not like it. She was already full. She also seems to have the shivers and stands a little humped up. I saw her pee and have a normal crap. We just lost a yonger calf to perhaps scours or something else after a lot of money and effort. Does anyone think that the bacteria in the scours got into Mollys cut knee and that is why it is all swollen. She can hardly stand on it and she was walking ok yesterday.

 

[angie1]

I have a calf that is three weeks old that went through navel ill and a weeks worth of Nuflor and was doing pretty good. She is a Black Angus that is quite large, pulled her mothers insides out when she was born in a feedlot. She is a little wobbly on her feet and probably got stepped on in the pen as her left hock and knee have always been large. Now the one left front leg has swollen right up to her elbow and she can hardly walk or get up. Molly is still eating. She went from being fine yesterday to dead lame today. I also discovered a little cut on her knee. Gave her a double shot of penicillin and one aspirin. Tried to get some Neox (tetracycline) down her in a bottle but she did not like it. She was already full. She also seems to have the shivers and stands a little humped up. I saw her pee and have a normal crap. We just lost a yonger calf to perhaps scours or something else after a lot of money and effort. Does anyone think that the bacteria in the scours got into Mollys cut knee and that is why it is all swollen. She can hardly stand on it and she was walking ok yesterday.

Lots to say here and little time for me to say it. I am thinking you need to get her temperature. It would help you determine if she was shivering from pain and fever or just pain. Needs more than pennicillin and aspirin. Can the vet come see her? If for what ever reason you are unable to treat agressivlly, I would suggest giving her away to someone who has experience or shooting her. If you are going to keep her she needs to see the vet. Needs presrcription anti inflammatory and, perhaps, a more powerful antibiotic.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Just keep pouring the short acting penicillin to it. Also, 3 times per day, run cold water over the swollen area for a few minutes. If it was stepped on, chances are the swelling is from a bone fragment and the cold water will take of that just fine. Do this until the swelling goes down. I've seen calves with broken legs subjected to this kind of treatment and in a couple months you'd never even know the leg had been broken.

Rod

 

[angie1]

Just keep pouring the short acting penicillin to it. Also, 3 times per day, run cold water over the swollen area for a few minutes. If it was stepped on, chances are the swelling is from a bone fragment and the cold water will take of that just fine. Do this until the swelling goes down. I've seen calves with broken legs subjected to this kind of treatment and in a couple months you'd never even know the leg had been broken.
Rod

I hate to disagree ~ but is too important to ignore. Antibiotic assumes there is an infection. This may not be the case. She needs to seperate one issue from the other, they need to be handled differently. Pain management is also an issue. The cold water may help to bring down the swelling, but not enough, this is where the anti inflammatory comes in. Calf needs to be contained as well in a clean dry area. There needs to be a decision made as to whether or not to make a half assed effort and get half assed results or invest the effort. Some times the first gets you by ~ but too often not and at the expense of the calfs' well being.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

"There needs to be a decision made as to whether or not to make a half assed effort and get half assed results or invest the effort. Some times the first gets you by ~ but too often not and at the expense of the calfs' well being."

All too often in this day and age people invest hundreds of dollars worth of crap in a calf, and the calf just dies anyway. Why? Because they don't know crap all about cattle. Instead of pouring targetted antibiotics at the animal (which, btw, only helps to create all new resistant bugs so those of us who actually rely on livestock for our living get stuck with trying to figure out how to treat our animals that we rely on to feed our families).

So what do you do? You look at what this animals been through.

1) Hard pull - probably damaged the tendons in the leg, hence the swelling. POSSIBLY stepped on, therefore possibility of bone fragments. Either way, don't pour crap to the calf. NOTHING beats cold water as an anti-inflammatory on an animal (including humans).

2) Navel ill - Nuflor was used, but probably wasn't the right treatment course. A broad spectrum should have been used, like penicillin. Navel ill can also travel to the joints. Once again short acting penicillin in a loading dose followed by standard treatment is your first step.

So hence my recommendation of penicillin and cold water. And pain relievers for cows? Come on, pain relievers in humans are a bad idea, why stretch that out to cattle too? Treat the problem and the pain goes away. The pain ain't going to hurt the efficacy of the treatment, but pain relievers can.

Rod

 

[angie1]

"There needs to be a decision made as to whether or not to make a half assed effort and get half assed results or invest the effort. Some times the first gets you by ~ but too often not and at the expense of the calfs' well being."

All too often in this day and age people invest hundreds of dollars worth of crap in a calf, and the calf just dies anyway. Why? Because they don't know crap all about cattle. Instead of pouring targetted antibiotics at the animal (which, btw, only helps to create all new resistant bugs so those of us who actually rely on livestock for our living get stuck with trying to figure out how to treat our animals that we rely on to feed our families).

So hence my recommendation of penicillin and cold water. And pain relievers for cows? Come on, pain relievers in humans are a bad idea, why stretch that out to cattle too? Treat the problem and the pain goes away. The pain ain't going to hurt the efficacy of the treatment, but pain relievers can.

Rod

I apologize ~ I did not aim the quoted portion of my response at you.

True that people lose the calf because they don't know crap about cattle ~ hence my recommendation that this person call the vet.

I agree that people pour antibiotics to these animals, which are many times unnecessary, creating (as you say), drug resistance ~ as has happened in penicillin. This is why I recommended that s/he take the temp FIRST ~ to determine if there is even an infection present (as indicated by elevated temp) before randomly treating with an antibiotic.

I disagree with the pain reliever statement, but it is ok to disagree respectfully. I take pain reliever if I have pain. This person mention that the calf was shivering and hunched. If these behaviors are a result of pain as opposed to infection ~ pain reliever should, in my opinion, be used. That is what its made for. Animals in pain fail to thrive/perform and it is an unnecessary cruelty (Again, my opinion).

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

I guess there are those people who spend money unwisely on medications I have yet to see one. Those that have money usually call the vet first! Those that know what they are doing are usually wise enough to know when to call the vet.

With all due respect, you guys with your "call the vet ASAP" lines are ignoring a reality in this situation: Calves aren't worth a vet trip anymore. 8 weight heifers up here are worth about 600 bucks. It cost you 450 bucks to keep that cow over winter and get that calf out. Its going to cost another hundred bucks or so to feed that calf to 8 weight. Your profit margin is now sitting at 50 bucks. I'm not sure how far Newbie is from a vet, but where I'm at, it costs me 50 bucks just to get a vet to my door. There goes my profit margin out the door.

Whats going to happen when the vet arrives? He _may_ stick a rectal thermometer into that calf, but I doubt it. Calves under stress, whether it be from bacterial infection or simple pain are going to show elevated temperature readings. So a temperature reading isn't going to show us what you guys are hoping it will show. If the vet decides to take blood and grow cultures, that takes time. In the meantime, he is going to recommend starting the calf on a broad spectrum antibiotic and using cold water (or perhaps an anti-inflammatory) to take the swelling in the joints down. Pain relievers are contraindicated _until a diagnosis is made_ as the pain relievers can mask symptoms.

So what has the call to the vet bought Newbie? More expense and the exact same treatment that I recommended at the start of this thread. In the time that it takes for cultures to be grown and identified, Newbie will know whether the broad spectrum antibiotic is working or not.

Whats happened to this calf is the original florfenicol treatment has eradicated _some_ of the bacteria causing the navel ill, but allowed the florfenicol resistant bugs to multiply out of control. The penicillin is used to bring these under control and allow the body to heal. In this case, with a loading dose, you won't be causing any additional resistance as the loading dose is specifically to prevent it.

Newbie, do yourself a favor and call your ag extension office. There should be a "Drugs For Cowboys" type of course somewhere in your area. We have them up here each year, and while it costs a few bucks to attend, it can help you. They discuss some of the new medications on the market, and they'll also discuss some of the new types of resistance that have been cropping up in the past year. These courses are targetted to cow/calf and feedlot producers so you get a good overview of the common ailments you'll run into and is worth the investment if you want to be serious about animal health.

Rod

 

[newbie]

Thanks for your replies. Molly has a temp of 102.6. She is still drinking well and today she walked around a little after I helped her get up. Gave her a half cc of banamine for the swelling last night and it sure has helped. She had 5 cc of Pen G on sunday night. How much more could I give her tonight? The vet that I have tried to use for other calves will not come out. Just tells me what to give or pick up at his clinic and says good luck. I have not yet heard back from him. I looked up another vet and hopefully he can make it on thursday. Vets do not seem too interested in having a client with only 3 cows. Hopefully this new one will work out. Cheers

 

[angie1]

Thanks for your replies. Molly has a temp of 102.6. She is still drinking well and today she walked around a little after I helped her get up. Gave her a half cc of banamine for the swelling last night and it sure has helped. She had 5 cc of Pen G on sunday night. How much more could I give her tonight?

The banamine will help alot yes ~ but remember to keep the calf contained so she is not abusing it. I am glad you are helping her up, and she is willing to stand ~ that is a big deal. I cannot answer on the Pen as I have not used it in a very long time.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Read the dosage instructions on the bottle for rates. I always double the dosage rate for the first injection (loading dose as per vet recommendation), then go back to label rates. There are different brands of Penicillin with different dosage rates, so follow whats on your own bottle. With penicillin, not enough is harmful as you'll only kill the weak bacteria. Err on the side of too heavy as this won't result in resistant bacteria and I've never heard of anything dying from an OD of Pen. If you don't see improvement in a week you'll need to look at a different antibiotic, probably a tetracycline (at this time a vet and a culture would be useful). As for the vet not coming out, it doesn't surprise me as this seems like its a pretty straighforward case, hence the phone recommendations.

Rod

 

[newbie]

Molly is now getting up on her own the last two bottles of today! I have been giving her tetracycline powder in her bottle and we gave her 3 cc of Pen G tonight. Not sure wether to give her more Banamine? She had a half cc last night. Seems to have worked like a miracle. Swelling is down. Probally should have continued for a few more days after the navel ill episode. Vet recommended Nuflor at the time so we went with that but should maybe have done it longer or added penicillin. Not sure wether I should give her another shot of banamine? What do you think? She is drinking all bottles, even with the tetracycline powder. She is drinking 4 bottles around 2 litres a day but still looks tucked up. I noticed her poo changed from dark to light brown. Perhaps the drugs? I love this forum. Last time I used it was last year when my very first calf had pneumonia. Susie is now a healthy Red Angus ready to be AI. Friday, our Charolais did great from day one and is also ready to AI.
I have not had to post since then as I find all the information I need on this forum. Also I have the Storey Book Guide to Cattle which is like our bible. Thanks for your suggestions. Cheers

 

[angie1]

Molly is now getting up on her own the last two bottles of today! I have been giving her tetracycline powder in her bottle and we gave her 3 cc of Pen G tonight. Not sure wether to give her more Banamine? She had a half cc last night. Seems to have worked like a miracle. Swelling is down. Not sure wether I should give her another shot of banamine? What do you think? She is drinking all bottles, even with the tetracycline powder. She is drinking 4 bottles around 2 litres a day but still looks tucked up. I noticed her poo changed from dark to light brown. Perhaps the drugs? Cheers

No, hold off on banamine unless she goes back down or off feed ~ in that case do not hesitate to use it. The banamine is an anti inflammatory and terribly helpful. As I stated, animals in pain fail to thrive/perform. Is dangerous for a calf to go down and not want to get back up. It is dangerous for them to go off feed. The banamine manages the pain so they feel well enough to do these things. However ~ some pain is good and necessary. It keeps the calf from over using that leg. Is natures way of telling her "Take it easy" See? So long as she is getting up and eating, leave off.

Now ~ this is important ~ go get a tube of probiotics. The antibiotics you are giving kill not only bad bacteria, but good bacteria in her stomach as well. The probiotics will help restore. It is cheap ~ well worth your money ~ and you cannot use too much of it. Use the paste in a tube, is easier to control how much they are getting. You can get it from the vet or from your feed store/farm supply.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Keep socking the penicillin to the calf. If you're going to go the probiotic route (I don't, I let nature take care of its own), feed electrolytes as well, otherwise the probiotics will be expelled.

Rod

 

[Alice]

Keep socking the penicillin to the calf. If you're going to go the probiotic route (I don't, I let nature take care of its own), feed electrolytes as well, otherwise the probiotics will be expelled.

Rod

I

f you're going to go the probiotic route (I don't, I let nature take care of its own), feed electrolytes as well, otherwise the probiotics will be expelled.

Since electrolytes are used for dehydration and electrolyte imbalance correction, I don't quite understand this, but that's ok...I don't have to, nor do I have to agree with it, I guess.

Newbie, you've had that calf on one form of antibiotic or another for a good while, now. Angie's suggestion about giving the calf probiotics, even if it's yogurt, is absolutely correct...and, you need to do it right away. Who knows, maybe the calf is acting hunched over because it's stomach is in distress from all of the antibiotics. That's where the probiotics come in...to add back the good bacteria in the gut that has been wiped out by the antibiotics. Probiotics can also stimulate appetite.

Don't go too heavy on the banamine. It's a wonderful drug, but my vet told me that it can be overused and cause severe gut irritation, much like too much aspirin can in humans.

My thoughts...which are going to overlap with other's here...keep the calf in a clean area where it can get to it's water and food with a minimum amount of exertion. Do what you can to help control severe pain in the calf, which can cause weight loss, a sharp drop in eating, and overall weakness, which in turn makes any physical problem worse and harder to treat and eventually cure. If you are going to give antibiotics, don't mess around with penicillin or LA200 or any of the over the counter antibiotics and discontinue them when the course of treatment should be ended...three days, five days, whatever the vet or antibiotic label suggests. (I will admit that when I give antibiotics, I usually pull up about a half cc over what is recommended.) You might also ask the vet about giving you a dose or two of dexamethazone. That might kick the pain right in the butt.

Again, probiotics, probiotics, probitics right now! OH! Give that calf a shot of vitamin B complex and a shot of vitamin A,E,&D.

Good luck, Alice

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Since electrolytes are used for dehydration and electrolyte imbalance correction, I don't quite understand this, but that's ok...I don't have to, nor do I have to agree with it, I guess.

Its all about balance, Alice. Recent studies show that probiotic treatments are completely worthless without the necessary electrolyte balance in the system. My vet showed me a study where they took a healthy cow and stuffed probiotics in her. While her levels TEMPORARILY went up, they went right back to baseline in a few short hours, disproving many of the claims by probiotic manufacturers and their boosters.

Since this calf has been ill and been subjected to Nuflor, its electrolytes are likely imbalanced. Probiotics won't do a bit of good until some semblance of balance is restored in the system. Newbie will simply be pouring money down the toilet. Personally I believe probiotics are a waste of money. As the calf heals and balance is restored to the digestive tract, the body will bring rumen activity back to a normal state all on its own, assuming adequate nutrition.

don't mess around with penicillin or LA200 or any of the over the counter antibiotics and discontinue them when the course of treatment

Can someone explain to me what you hobby guys have against Penicillin and the older drugs? For something minor like navel ills, 99.9% of calves respond to it. All firing florfenicols and the newer drugs at sick animals is doing is building resistance to those new drugs.

Rod

 

[Alice]

Since electrolytes are used for dehydration and electrolyte imbalance correction, I don't quite understand this, but that's ok...I don't have to, nor do I have to agree with it, I guess.

Its all about balance, Alice. Recent studies show that probiotic treatments are completely worthless without the necessary electrolyte balance in the system. My vet showed me a study where they took a healthy cow and stuffed probiotics in her. While her levels TEMPORARILY went up, they went right back to baseline in a few short hours, disproving many of the claims by probiotic manufacturers and their boosters.

Since this calf has been ill and been subjected to Nuflor, its electrolytes are likely imbalanced. Probiotics won't do a bit of good until some semblance of balance is restored in the system. Newbie will simply be pouring money down the toilet. Personally I believe probiotics are a waste of money. As the calf heals and balance is restored to the digestive tract, the body will bring rumen activity back to a normal state all on its own, assuming adequate nutrition.

don't mess around with penicillin or LA200 or any of the over the counter antibiotics and discontinue them when the course of treatment

Can someone explain to me what you hobby guys have against Penicillin and the older drugs? For something minor like navel ills, 99.9% of calves respond to it. All firing florfenicols and the newer drugs at sick animals is doing is building resistance to those new drugs.

Rod

Its all about balance, Alice. Recent studies show that probiotic treatments are completely worthless without the necessary electrolyte balance in the system. My vet showed me a study where they took a healthy cow and stuffed probiotics in her. While her levels TEMPORARILY went up, they went right back to baseline in a few short hours, disproving many of the claims by probiotic manufacturers and their boosters.

Well, I just made a quick google of studies supporting probiotic treatments...not the studies promoted by probiotic manufacturers. So far, looks to me as tho it's still considered a viable and useful treatment. And it doesn't have to be expensive...yogurt, buttermilk, etc., work pretty well. So, as long as I am seeing positive results using it, I will continue to do so and will continue to recommend using it.

Since this calf has been ill and been subjected to Nuflor, its electrolytes are likely imbalanced.

Well, it's good gut bacteria is certainly destroyed and needs to be replenished...by probiotics.

Can someone explain to me what you hobby guys have against Penicillin and the older drugs? For something minor like navel ills, 99.9% of calves respond to it. All firing florfenicols and the newer drugs at sick animals is doing is building resistance to those new drugs.

Could be...but us "hobby guys" aren't really about letting our "hobby animals" die. Dead animals are really a drain on the pocket book. And, us "hobby guys" seem to be perfectly amenable to using what the vets suggest and what research shows and what we find to be effective.

Now, as to your patronizing tone...let's just say it's :roll:

Alice

 

[milkmaid]

Its all about balance, Alice. Recent studies show that probiotic treatments are completely worthless without the necessary electrolyte balance in the system. My vet showed me a study where they took a healthy cow and stuffed probiotics in her. While her levels TEMPORARILY went up, they went right back to baseline in a few short hours, disproving many of the claims by probiotic manufacturers and their boosters.

Since this calf has been ill and been subjected to Nuflor, its electrolytes are likely imbalanced. Probiotics won't do a bit of good until some semblance of balance is restored in the system. Newbie will simply be pouring money down the toilet. Personally I believe probiotics are a waste of money. As the calf heals and balance is restored to the digestive tract, the body will bring rumen activity back to a normal state all on its own, assuming adequate nutrition.

Rod

I agree with you Rod. Not only will a pH that's slightly one direction or the other (even as minor as a .2 change) affect the survival of bacteria, but... when the calf is on antibiotics and its system is full of theraputic levels of probiotics, you cannot possibly expect antibiotics to differentiate between good and bad bacteria. It kills them all. JMO, but I wait to put probiotics into the calf until I take them off antibiotics. I would disagree that probiotics are a waste of money... sure the animal will eventually get normal levels of bacteria in its gut, left alone, but the calf will often recover a bit quicker if they're given probiotic.

 

[TexasBred]

Rod I agree with you on most of what you posted other than stating use of probiotics is a waste of money. It certainly can be but not always. Personally I like penicillin but still don't use a lot of it. When I do I give them a real heavy load of it tho. People and animals do build up immunities to certain drugs. One reason it has always been so hard to get an MD to give you a shot of penn...Agree with you also on the electrolytes. Keep the calf hydrated, administer electrolytes and leave it alone. Last thing it really needs right now is more strong antibiotics. A cleaner environment might have prevented some of the problems to begin with. I'd really have to have seen the calf to begin with but question whether or not it ever needed them. This calf may turn out to be an expensive educational project on "how to raise baby calves".

 

[angie1]

Edit to avoid redundancy and stirring the pot ~
Newbie, How is your calf doing?

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Now, as to your patronizing tone...let's just say it's :roll:

I moved this quote to the top as I wanted to address it first. I looked back on my post and saw absolutely nothing in there remotely condescending, unless you consider knowledge to be condescension.

Well, it's good gut bacteria is certainly destroyed and needs to be replenished...by probiotics.

Which cannot be done until its electrolyte balance is restored. Until that happens, putting probiotics into an animal is a waste of money and time.

Could be...but us "hobby guys" aren't really about letting our "hobby animals" die. Dead animals are really a drain on the pocket book. And, us "hobby guys" seem to be perfectly amenable to using what the vets suggest and what research shows and what we find to be effective.

Now whose being condescending? Do you really honestly believe that I just leave my animals to die out here? In 12 years of records, I have a birth to 8 weight death loss of less than 2%, mostly due to blackleg (the best blackleg vaccines are only about 97% effective). I haven't bothered to figure out what my treatment success rate is, but in that same 12 years I've lost exactly ONE calf. Prior to that (20 years) I really have no idea what my loss rate was as I was working for others and they kept track of that stuff. I've tended to herds of 35 and ridden pastures of more than 2000 animals. I take every loss personally, and I will fight to save one, but to treat an animal correctly does not require hundreds of dollars, nor does it require hundreds of hours of effort. Nor does it require the absolute cutting edge of antibiotics, especially when those antibiotics are not registered for use (or even remotely effective) in certain circumstances.

And as far as my hobby guy remark goes, it wasn't even remotely a crack against hobby farmers, but rather an observation that hobby guys tend to go wild for expensive medications when the cheap old stand bys work just fine (if not better, as in this case).

Rod