Murray Grey Bull to Critique

[Beef11]

Char X Angus hmmmm What about a simmi angus cross they have a dilute gene that makes gray calves? I guess if something is gray it automatically means it is what is common in your area? When were MGs created? In Australia right? What breeds were common there then? We didn't get Chars in the US until the 70's (i think). I don't even know if the timeline would allow those allegations. I'm not a MG or a char expert. I do think that dilution genes and no dominance genes exist in many places in the industry.

 

[Keren]

I have worked with the sutherlands who developed the breed . . . they are an interesting bunch, very nice friendly people. They have stated that the breed arose when a particular shorthorn cow was bred to aberdeen angus bulls and produced grey calves, which they called mulberries. They would have been culled except Mrs Sutherland liked them. I have found no reason to doubt what they say. However, considering the number of breeders of murray greys now, I would think it would be impossible to tell whether every single breeder had been 100% honest about the breeding of their animals.

Beef11 makes an interesting point about the breeds which were in Australia at the time of MG breed development. However, my point is, yes the first MGs were shorthorn angus. But its impossible to tell what has happened in the breed since then.

Our MGs are 100% pure (or 100% cross, depending how you look at it) - going back to the first sutherland animals - angus x shorthorn

 

[msscamp]

However, considering the number of breeders of murray greys now, I would think it would be impossible to tell whether every single breeder had been 100% honest about the breeding of their animals.

From what I understand, it is a known fact that some Canadian (as I understand it) breeders have crossed the breed with Charlois to increase the bone - but I don't see what that has to do with the original breed. The original breed was a cross between an Abderdeen Angus and a roan Shorthorn cow, and most breeders have kept true to the breed because they didn't see a need for improvement.

 

[sebrondjr]

Basically, I took a look at the bull, formulated my opinion and then read all the other posts. Nothing really original in my opininon, but here goes. Nice color, good topline, great legs-nice and thick, good scrotal set-up. About the only thing I would be concerned about is his head. It's a bit "cow-ish." Overall I like him though. More pros than cons.

 

[gberry]

Thanks for the response sebrondjr.

 

[andybob]

Does Muuray Grey bred to Angus qualify as a cross?

I don't know. Is a beefmaster bred to a hereford or shorthorn a cross?

Just teasing gberry,once a composite is established as a fixed genotype, it does qualify as a breed which can be crossed to the origional parent types. I like the length and strong topline of your bull,as I have stated in a thread by Springer farms some months ago,I would seriously consider using Murray Grey in a future crossbreeding programme, definitly one of the overlooked breeds!

 

[gberry]

No problem andybob. Thanks for the comments.

 

[Australian Cattleman]

sorry to get off the track. I had always wondered how the supposed Charolais got into them when they never arrived till the late 60's or early 70's here. The latest is that the French have a few territories not that far from Australia,namely New Caledonia that a Charolais bull could have been shipped over from. Anyway enough of my input into this thread they are good contributors to the beef industry and lots of people like them some dislike them. Thats what makes our world diverse.
Colin

 

[James Family Farming]

The Murray Grey Breed has alot to offer the beef industry in both America and Canada. If looking for more info and pictures see http://www.wallawong.com.au

 

[topsquar]

Heres a go for all on the board Muray Greys are Charolais crossed with Angus anyway. Read this article in a news paper just the other day. I've heard these comments for years and years. Taking nothing away from the MG breed they are fairly good cattle in most areas apart from the rough coastal type country. Then Charolais don't do that well when the going gets tough nor do Angus. I cannot believe the history of the MG breed in the fact that they have mainatained their colour and breed type for all these years without the infusion of a solid breed say like Charolais or Angus.Maybe it is true and it was a frak of nature when those silver calves arrived in the upper Murray all those years ago. The MG breed has done a lot for the beef industry here in Australia and is growng overseas.

they where using charolaise in tasmania to produce the line of greys down there. They then combined with the murrey grey society. thats what i heard. Good cattle though. 8)

 

[cowboy44]

I keep seeing where the Murray Grey are fine boned that is the only negative I have ever seen on them. Can someone explain why that is a problem. To me a fine boned animal would dress out better than a large boned animal such as a Charolais.
For the last 2 years I have been going to Angus Bulls (commercial cow herd) because that is what the buyers want.The only Murray I have ever seen are the pictures posted on this webb site and they impress me. I have been searching for a Sim/Angus for this next beeding season now I am reconsidering a Murray Grey. My original question is, what is wrong with fine boned? Lets hear your opinions, Thanks

 

[gberry]

Here are some picture of our bull's calves from this year

MG heifer

MG bull calf

Some MG x Angus and MG x Black Baldy Heifers and Steers

 

[DOC HARRIS]

My original question is, what is wrong with fine boned? Lets hear your opinions, Thanks

Cowboy44 - In answering your question, I would approach it in a slightly different way - relating the answer in a "Functional Trait" manner. Let's look at the subject in this way: There are a number of physical traits (FUNCTIONAL TRAITS) which have not been focused on or localized by having EPD's designated to them - not because the traits are not important - but because they are not considered AS important as BW, WW, YW, Milk, IMF, and REA, to name a few. Examples of a few of those traits are skeletal structure (sound feet and legs, strong pasterns, shoulders, spine, etc.), mammary structure (tight udders and small teats), disposition, femininity, body capacity and fleshing ability, muscle expression, degree of fatness, stayability on and on and on. Every single one of the above named traits are IMPORTANT in their own right! Important for seemingly subtle reasons, however those reasons all have a bearing on HOW that individual reproduces, lives long enough to justify her existance to the breeder by having a strong, health profitable calf year after year. That keeps YOU in business. Any discrepancy in ANY of the 'functional' traits will minimize the opportunity for any seedstock animal to be optimal in providing a profit for the producer.

The first Functional Trait mentioned in the above paragraph, and in My Opinion, the most important one is skeletal structure and all that accompanies those characteristics. Cowboy44 - THIS answers your query regarding ". . .what is wrong with fine boned?" 'Fine-boned' won't support a pregnant cow to build a healthy embryo. 'Fine-boned' won't allow a cow to travel a distance to obtain enough forage AND water AND minerals to build a healthy embryo and to birth a 55-80 pound calf and protect it from predators - whomever or whatever they may be. 'Fine-boned' won't support a bull during mating to adequately inseminate a herd of 25 - 50 or more cows year after year. 'Fine-boned' won't build a foot and leg structure strong enough to carry a pregnant cow over any terrain for eight or 10 or more years to justify her remaining as a herd brood cow and spreading her original cost (purchase cost or expense of raising her from a calf) over many years. 'Fine-boned' won't build strong pasterns capable of supporting and transporting a seedstock animal or a feeder for sufficient time to enable them to be profitable. "Fine-boned' won't build a strong spinal column sufficiently capable of producing a reasonably large, well-formed ribeye and bearing a healthy calf. 'Fine-boned' won't produce thick, muscular high-performing steers for a feedyard operation for the smaller frame can't sustain the weight necessary for profit. 'Fine-boned' is NOT conducive to longevity. 'Fine-boned' selection along with persistent selecting for low birth weight may decrease muscling (my term for this condition is "Funnel Butts") and increase calving difficulty in replacement heifers dur to reduced pelvic area. All of the above traits are inherited from the parents, and display themselves in their Phenotype.

I think that you can understand the importance having strong, firm, functional traits rather than sacrificing them for the dubious possibility of a few more pounds at the sale barn!

Does this answer your original question?

DOC HARRIS

 

[cowboy44]

Doc
Thanks, that is the best answer I have received since asking the question. I was raised on a Texas ranch coming out of the depression wirh no running water or electricy. I have been raising cattle 45 years the same old way. I retired a year ago after working 7 days a week at a job I was not happy with to support my family, my spare time was taking care of the cows, lots of time after dark. I always had Brahama cross ( the meaner, the better I liked her) always ran good bulls with them and got good calves about the only time they were penned was when the calves were sold, we usually had a pretty good fight going on to get that done cause they were pretty crazy. Now that I have gotten older and can't move as fast I have discovered that there are gentle cattle out there,gosh does that make them easy to work,about the only thing you got to watch out for is the kicking, which I have a pretty bad bruse now about 3 inches below the belt buckle from palpating cows last Friday, barely missed the you know whats. Any way after retiring and now being able to do what I really enjoy doing, I have been attending all extension and vet meeting I have learned a lot concerning ranching and to survive the rancher will have to change with the times and keep improving his herd. keep abreast of all gov rules and regulations. Sorry for the rambling on this morning thanks again for the answer. I enjoy reading this forum sometimes you can get some good information from it sometimes you take it with a grain of salt.

 

[backhoeboogie]

This has been an informative thread.

So how do the MGs hold up in hot climates?

 

[gberry]

So far our MGs have held up at least as well as our black angus and angus crosses that have been bred in the Florida panhandle for the last 30 years.

 

[Badlands]

Fine and big bone are really misnomers.

They mean nothing in reality, other than how we think they should should.

Several research papers have been published through the years comparing fine boned animals to coarse boned animals.


Guess what? The percent of bone by weight is the same in both animals. Fine bone generally has thicker walls and is denser, big bones have thinner walls and is less dense, but by weight, the bone weighs the same in both cases.

Many people mistake fine bones for frailty, which is a mistake, sort of an excuse for their not being able to see the real quality of the animal, or their desire to simple have them look the way they want them to look.

Bone size is more about marketing economics than anything else. About the only time bone size hurts you in a biological sense is when they are so coarse that they have trouble calving.


Badlands

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I've always been told (being a Simm breeder) that heavy bones hurt cutability. I never agreed with that.
I do believe the SHAPE of the bone is the most important. I like a flat, wide bone for strength. I do believe fine boned animals have the potential to have shorter productive lives. Fine bones on animals with heavy muscles, generally have small feet - and small feet don't hold up with heavy bodies.
So, yes, I discriminate against fine bones, when choosing my cattle.
But, I do not see fine bones on the calves pictures on this thread. They look average - which is great.
Nice answer Doc, bone is just PART OF THE PUZZLE.