buckaroo_bif
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Good luck LimoX
Mega Prolapse
- Thread starter AngusLimoX
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AngusLimoX
Well-known member
Caustic Burno":89tsgb7s said:
My form of mind control on the herd. I can get em in any barn or pen with a simple wave of a carrot. Nutricious too!
Not getting trampled is a key point to remember though.
buckaroo_bif
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My horse likes apples.
He turns his nose up at carrots, he's very picky and spoiled.
:lol:
He turns his nose up at carrots, he's very picky and spoiled.
:lol:
randiliana
Well-known member
AngusLimoX":1on9gtdd said:Big learnin day for me, obviously.
Well, we just dropped another. Watched it fall from mammas butt while she stood and wallered. (This momma squats fer nothin, except if you have carrots! ). Beautiful pb heifer calf, suckin within 7 minutes of hittin dirt.
Then I come in here and see these posts and my eyes start waterin and it's time to go. Just one of those days for a small guy in calving season.
Thank you all so much!
2 more calves and I sleep tonight!
Interesting, I would have never thought cows liked carrots :lol: !! Glad you got a live and healthy one. It kinda takes the sting away, at least for a bit!!
CattleAnnie
Well-known member
Sorry to hear about your luck, ALX.
As a rule of thumb, prolapses are the reason that we get the vet out to c-section if a calf can't be delivered quickly & easily with the 'pullers' attached. Too much damage to cow and calf otherwise.
Sure it's going to cost you a vet bill, but at the end of it you'll at least livestock to sell, plus far less suffering to the animals involved.
Glad to hear that your other calves came okay.
Take care and better luck with the rest of your calving season.
As a rule of thumb, prolapses are the reason that we get the vet out to c-section if a calf can't be delivered quickly & easily with the 'pullers' attached. Too much damage to cow and calf otherwise.
Sure it's going to cost you a vet bill, but at the end of it you'll at least livestock to sell, plus far less suffering to the animals involved.
Glad to hear that your other calves came okay.
Take care and better luck with the rest of your calving season.
AngusLimoX
Well-known member
buckaroo_bif":iahmp7zf said:
Sounds like our donk, who was the original reason for the wife getting carrots. We can't give the donkey grain ( she's a weight watcher ) so the wife found a grocery that puts their carrots out in bulk real cheap.( I think they may be shelf expired ).
Tried em on the cattle and that was it, they love em.Only problem is I get scolded for stealing the donkeys carrots. ;-)
AngusLimoX
Well-known member
CattleAnnie":3agx3sjw said:
I am not afraid of a vet bill when required, my annual bill is probably more than most because I am in the QSH program, and must have a documented verifiable vet/patient/client relationship. I also think my vet and I would call each other friends.
I guess in the calvings I've actually had to intervene I was able to assist with a "light pull".
When do you make the decision that it is a "hard pull" requiring a ceasarian?
I am afraid there is nothing I would do differently except for maybe shooting her earlier. The calf was dead when I checked, and even if it had lived the 2 of them were not worth the vet bill, IF they survived. And I suspected internal bleeding ( you can see some pooled blood in the photo and her abdomen was way swollen ) as well. It's hard to detail everything when you hunt and peck on a keyboard like I do.
One of our purebreds - probably a different story, but it would depend on the circumstances. The math has to play a part. ( And that is counting the deadstock fee ).
And I do have a couple " the vet was here lost em both " stories, as I am sure you do.
Your advice is appreciated and respected Annie, looking forward to seeing your "Call the Vet!!" criteria.
Stepper":1dpfhd48 said:
I am not CA, but last year we had one - $175.
Managed to get a couple of live calves as well. Not her fault - twins - one breech - all intertwined. I could not sort out the mess and either could our truly stupendous gentleman veterinarian.
Cow raised them both to weaning.
He cut and I assisted.
She is bred back.
Bez!
I helped my brother try to put one in after pulling a calf. We had no success and callled the vet who gave her a shot to relax the muscles and made us roll her from off her side to laying on her back. The prolapse went right in easy after that. Don't know if it was the shot or rolling her on her back that made it so easy to put back. Anyway, the vet stated she may have ruptured an artery when she prolaplsed. Sure enough within ten minutes she was dead.
AngusLimoX, thank you very much for posting the pictures. I've never seen a uterine prolapse and the pictures were very helpful. I'm just sorry they came at such a high price for you. Hopefully the rest of your calving season will go smoothly.
CattleAnnie
Well-known member
Hey there, ALX,
Well, in answer to your question about when "hard pulls" require a c-section, I usually go by this rule of thumb:
When an animal isn't making reasonable progress during a delivery, I'll run her into the maternity pen, glove up, and do a quick palpation to figure out what the holdup is.
This is where the big "C" decision comes into play, because this is when a person can determine just how much room the cow has to deliver. Just make sure you've got the cow tied with a lariat or halter when you exam them, as sometimes they'll go down then or later during the pull and if they're locked into a headgate can choke to death.
For example, the last C-section here was a first calver that I'd bought that was supposed to be bred Red Angus. Wrong! Sweet little Char/Herf X heifer had a huge boned calf inside her (probably Sim sired by the look of it - lying so and so that sold her).
When I was examing her, it became quite apparant that there was just no room for that calf's big head to pass through the birth canal along with those big knees, and right then it was a quick call to vet (who was on another ranch and wouldn't be able to get to our place for over an hour, so we agreed to meet at his clinic and do the C-section there) the big rush to get the truck and trailer hooked up, poor heifer loaded in and off to town like a raped ape.
Unfortunately, the calf didn't survive, but at least the heifer recovered well enough to be able to sell by the pound that fall (she came up open when we pregged).
If it's just a simple malpresentation, then I'll straighten the calf around into normal delivery postion, apply the chains, and just use light force in conjunction with her contractions.
Sometimes a cow gets tired with a big calf or a set of twins and needs a little help to bring it into the world, but I still do a quick exam to make sure there's room for it to come.
Every now and then I've run into another oddity that has ended up in C-sections, and that's a cow that won't dialate properly. Very frustrating, but still, can't make a watermelon fit through a key-hole, so again back to the blessed vet.
Some where in my travels I came across how much force a mechanical calf-puller exerts per pound, and man, it's quite a bit. So basically, Honey and I try to use them only to speed along a calf's delivery if there's room enough, as too hard a pull can lead to uterine prolapse.
Anyway, sure hope that's the last prolapse you'll ever have to deal with. They truly are a pain, both for the animal, and the owner trying to shove what's outside back in.
~
Stepper,
The last C-sections here ran just over $300.00 per head (and I drove both beasts 41km to the clinic, and assisted with both surgeries - so no mileage on those charges, but of course both were after hours :roll: ). They aren't cheap by any means, but if a person's lucky enough to get at least one animal live out of the mess, then I figure it'll even out in the end (plus I just hate to see any animal suffering unneccesarily).
As for breeding back, I have had about 50/50 success with C-section cows rebreeding, so pretty much a crap shoot...but that's just my luck and I haven't the foggiest what other's success rates are statisically.
~
Bez,
Man, hold onto that Vet! Talk about bargain basement prices!
~
Well, time to check the girls again. Sorry my responses are so garbled (tired). Still figure the best resource for good tried and true information is a vet, so again these are just my oddball experiences.
Take care all, and happy calving! ;-)
Well, in answer to your question about when "hard pulls" require a c-section, I usually go by this rule of thumb:
When an animal isn't making reasonable progress during a delivery, I'll run her into the maternity pen, glove up, and do a quick palpation to figure out what the holdup is.
This is where the big "C" decision comes into play, because this is when a person can determine just how much room the cow has to deliver. Just make sure you've got the cow tied with a lariat or halter when you exam them, as sometimes they'll go down then or later during the pull and if they're locked into a headgate can choke to death.
For example, the last C-section here was a first calver that I'd bought that was supposed to be bred Red Angus. Wrong! Sweet little Char/Herf X heifer had a huge boned calf inside her (probably Sim sired by the look of it - lying so and so that sold her).
When I was examing her, it became quite apparant that there was just no room for that calf's big head to pass through the birth canal along with those big knees, and right then it was a quick call to vet (who was on another ranch and wouldn't be able to get to our place for over an hour, so we agreed to meet at his clinic and do the C-section there) the big rush to get the truck and trailer hooked up, poor heifer loaded in and off to town like a raped ape.
Unfortunately, the calf didn't survive, but at least the heifer recovered well enough to be able to sell by the pound that fall (she came up open when we pregged).
If it's just a simple malpresentation, then I'll straighten the calf around into normal delivery postion, apply the chains, and just use light force in conjunction with her contractions.
Sometimes a cow gets tired with a big calf or a set of twins and needs a little help to bring it into the world, but I still do a quick exam to make sure there's room for it to come.
Every now and then I've run into another oddity that has ended up in C-sections, and that's a cow that won't dialate properly. Very frustrating, but still, can't make a watermelon fit through a key-hole, so again back to the blessed vet.
Some where in my travels I came across how much force a mechanical calf-puller exerts per pound, and man, it's quite a bit. So basically, Honey and I try to use them only to speed along a calf's delivery if there's room enough, as too hard a pull can lead to uterine prolapse.
Anyway, sure hope that's the last prolapse you'll ever have to deal with. They truly are a pain, both for the animal, and the owner trying to shove what's outside back in.
~
Stepper,
The last C-sections here ran just over $300.00 per head (and I drove both beasts 41km to the clinic, and assisted with both surgeries - so no mileage on those charges, but of course both were after hours :roll: ). They aren't cheap by any means, but if a person's lucky enough to get at least one animal live out of the mess, then I figure it'll even out in the end (plus I just hate to see any animal suffering unneccesarily).
As for breeding back, I have had about 50/50 success with C-section cows rebreeding, so pretty much a crap shoot...but that's just my luck and I haven't the foggiest what other's success rates are statisically.
~
Bez,
Man, hold onto that Vet! Talk about bargain basement prices!
~
Well, time to check the girls again. Sorry my responses are so garbled (tired). Still figure the best resource for good tried and true information is a vet, so again these are just my oddball experiences.
Take care all, and happy calving! ;-)
AngusLimoX
Well-known member
Thanks very much once again Annie. There is not much I do any differently except anything that happens is gonna happen here as I don't have a trailer yet.
I don't own a puller yet but I have quick access to one. If I didn't have access to one I would buy one ( and hope to not need it ).
When I called the vet and asked for a price on the prolapse they said "around" $200. ( And I say to myself plus farm visit fee $50 plus meds another $100 ). I suspect the C-section would have cost me over $400 total.
You are a lucky guy Bez, it would be almost worth that just for the extra set of hands!
Soo that is $350 for the prolapse and if she survived long enough to get to the abbatoir $45 to kill, and $.40 a pound at 800lbs is about $320. Plus $30 trucking. That puts her freezer meat at about $1.40 a pound. I can do a lot better than that, without taking the risk of her surviving until the butcher could take her.
I don't ship my problems, maybe not the smartest business attitude but it is one of the principles that ensures I am going to enjoy farming.
And as I said before, for a pb it would be a vet call at the first hint of trouble. In these situations it is largely judgement all the way through. And I had a "feeling" that I was dealing with something like Fred and his brother went through.
I have used the pb BA bull for this calf for 3 years and probably had in excess of 70 calves from him. The purebreds weighed in the mid to high 80's average. But he did throw one other monster bull last year. Huge limo cow calved on pasture and the calf may have been as big as the prolapse calf.
Just wondering how often freakish sized calves happen out of an otherwise easy calving bull? ( Just wondering because I have 6 more heifers to calve that were bred by this guy :lol: ).
I am tired too Annie, but even with the wreck I think this is my favourite time of year. ( All the little success stories hoppin around out there ). Crikey, long winded bugger, time for next check!
Thanks again for the advice. I now have that plus the experience gained to use on the next problem!
I don't own a puller yet but I have quick access to one. If I didn't have access to one I would buy one ( and hope to not need it ).
When I called the vet and asked for a price on the prolapse they said "around" $200. ( And I say to myself plus farm visit fee $50 plus meds another $100 ). I suspect the C-section would have cost me over $400 total.
You are a lucky guy Bez, it would be almost worth that just for the extra set of hands!
Soo that is $350 for the prolapse and if she survived long enough to get to the abbatoir $45 to kill, and $.40 a pound at 800lbs is about $320. Plus $30 trucking. That puts her freezer meat at about $1.40 a pound. I can do a lot better than that, without taking the risk of her surviving until the butcher could take her.
I don't ship my problems, maybe not the smartest business attitude but it is one of the principles that ensures I am going to enjoy farming.
And as I said before, for a pb it would be a vet call at the first hint of trouble. In these situations it is largely judgement all the way through. And I had a "feeling" that I was dealing with something like Fred and his brother went through.
I have used the pb BA bull for this calf for 3 years and probably had in excess of 70 calves from him. The purebreds weighed in the mid to high 80's average. But he did throw one other monster bull last year. Huge limo cow calved on pasture and the calf may have been as big as the prolapse calf.
Just wondering how often freakish sized calves happen out of an otherwise easy calving bull? ( Just wondering because I have 6 more heifers to calve that were bred by this guy :lol: ).
I am tired too Annie, but even with the wreck I think this is my favourite time of year. ( All the little success stories hoppin around out there
). Crikey, long winded bugger, time for next check!Thanks again for the advice. I now have that plus the experience gained to use on the next problem!
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
"Generally" - if you have an odd large calf by a certain bull - it's the COW'S fault - not the bull. Some cows just like to incubate bigguns. Also, if you checked her records, she probably had a large BW herself.
Cows have more to "say" about the size of the calf than the bull. Both contribute 50% of the genetics - but she's the incubator - she can make a BIG difference.
Never heard of a vet turning them upside down. Only one I saw, they pulled the legs out behind the cow laying on her bellie - kinda like a dog laying on the floor with their legs straight out behind them. Tips the hips so that the "mess" has a "downhill" slide as you push it in. Vet put a tarp under the mess & washed it, sugared it & pushed. Zip Zip mess went right in. They sure can make it look easy!!
Cows have more to "say" about the size of the calf than the bull. Both contribute 50% of the genetics - but she's the incubator - she can make a BIG difference.
Never heard of a vet turning them upside down. Only one I saw, they pulled the legs out behind the cow laying on her bellie - kinda like a dog laying on the floor with their legs straight out behind them. Tips the hips so that the "mess" has a "downhill" slide as you push it in. Vet put a tarp under the mess & washed it, sugared it & pushed. Zip Zip mess went right in. They sure can make it look easy!!
AngusLimoX
Well-known member
Jeanne - Simme Valley":11us52ek said:
Thanks very much Jeanne, I had actually had heard that about the cow influencing calf size now that you mention it. So if you're breeding low bw pb's you wanna get rid of those mamma's? Can having big calving cows influence your bulls epd's? Can they make a 50 lb difference?
The tarp and tip the hips thing was real interesting too. Using gravity to assist instead of hinder would have helped too.
Every doorknob between here and the heifer barn is still sticky from sugar! :lol:
Thanks Again
You will also get an odd nick sometimes with a particular breeding. We used a Lincoln Red bull years ago that always threw little tiny claves that grew like crazy. One cow when bred to him threw a monster, which also grew like crazy. Bred a bunch of other cows in the same herd to the same bull and got tiny little calves. Bred her the next year to an Angus along with all of the other cows to the same bull, her calf was the same size as everything else. Thought something had just gone haywire the first time so we bred her back to the Lincoln Red bull, another monster. Never used him on her again and she alwasy had calves the same size as all the others. Just something in the combination of that bull and that cow that was screwy
dun
dun
AngusLimoX
Well-known member
dun":35esozg0 said:
Thanks dun
Well I guess that is what makes this all so interesting. Quite often there are no absolutes.
I was just shootin the breeze with the deadstock guy who commented on the size of the dead calf.
I asked if he was the biggest he had picked up and he laughed and said nope, they picked up a 200 pound Holstein calf once.
I asked if momma lived and if it was a c - section and he said yes to both.
We didn't talk for long it is sleeting sideways and frigid, snotty noses starting to show up and coughing from the feeder section! Back atter! :lol:
X,
You never would have gotten that prolapse in without a shot of relaxer. and if you had she probably would have spit it right back out. i dont mess with prolapses at all. thats the vets job as far as i'm concerned. good to know how to in a bind though.
update on my cow with the little vaginal prolapse. took the stitches out and 3 days later she spit her back out. got her sewed up permanently now and she will head down the road shortly after meds are out of her.
You never would have gotten that prolapse in without a shot of relaxer. and if you had she probably would have spit it right back out. i dont mess with prolapses at all. thats the vets job as far as i'm concerned. good to know how to in a bind though.
update on my cow with the little vaginal prolapse. took the stitches out and 3 days later she spit her back out. got her sewed up permanently now and she will head down the road shortly after meds are out of her.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Got a good laugh out of that one!!
Every calf born influences a bulls epd's - but a single calf out of many doesn't have much bearing on final figures.
Over the years, I have had cows that I could breed to a billy goat & she would still spit out a 125# calf without blinking. Didn't make any difference if the bull was an easy calver or not - some cows just like to grow em big. But, if you keep those 120# heifers - they will also tend to grow em big. Not good for their first calf. :shock: We used to love those big heifers - don't anymore. Just propagating problems. Cow like that never produces bull quality - all too heavy to keep as bulls.
