Cause of death? (Bloating + prolapse)
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GoWyo
Well-known member
We have used modified live 5-way for years on calves at 60 days and preconditioning and cows have only received killed vax in the fall. My vet said it isn't an issue. Replacement heifers all get modified live in the spring pre-breeding. Want to get cows on modified live, but timing just hasn't worked post calving.
@aaronstiff, I didn't ask, because I assumed they were vaccinated. Not judging - you do you - but it's an expensive and painful lesson to learn (including the calf). Which segues into: Do you have a (good) relationship with a large animal vet? I realize geography plays a role on whether a vet is even available, but I strongly suggest discussing a vaccination protocol with either your vet/nearest vet (some will do phone or video consultations) or a trusted neighbor or mentor.
That said, a lot of people don't vaccinate (see aforementioned "you do you"), but there can be substantial consequences. It's considerably less expensive to vaccinate than to treat - or bury.
Obviously, you will never know what happened to your steer without a necropsy, but without being vaccinated, the first sign or symptom of a clostridial disease (e.g. blackleg) is usually a dead animal - it happens that fast.
That said, a lot of people don't vaccinate (see aforementioned "you do you"), but there can be substantial consequences. It's considerably less expensive to vaccinate than to treat - or bury.
Obviously, you will never know what happened to your steer without a necropsy, but without being vaccinated, the first sign or symptom of a clostridial disease (e.g. blackleg) is usually a dead animal - it happens that fast.
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aaronstiff
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Thanks @TCRanch. We have made a few calls in the past to the vet in Charlottetown (really one of the very few in PEI), but we've never sat down and worked out a program or anything.
To be honest, the majority of the farmers and ranchers that inspired me to get into cattle do not vaccinate at all. Joel Salatin and Greg Judy are 2 I've followed in the states. But even a large scale dairy farmer friend of mine here on the island avoids as much medication as he can.
I don't have a ton to lose since I have very few cattle right now, and they're not even close to being my main source of income, which are all things I'm grateful for. At this point it would take a lot more than just one death to make me consider vaccination, given I can't be positive of the cause of death, and especially given my target clientele. Call it stupid, but I'm willing to take the risk.
If I was running a feedlot full of stockers or even a dairy operation with all the problematic breeds that entails, I would of course be vaccinating. Those systems can only function with them. But in a pasture-based system with properly bred, healthy cows, many very experienced farmers have demonstrated that it is certainly possible to go vaccine-free.
But like you said, "you do you".
Thanks for understanding.faster horses
Well-known member
A
All I can say to that is, "good luck."Thanks @TCRanch. We have made a few calls in the past to the vet in Charlottetown (really one of the very few in PEI), but we've never sat down and worked out a program or anything.
To be honest, the majority of the farmers and ranchers that inspired me to get into cattle do not vaccinate at all. Joel Salatin and Greg Judy are 2 I've followed in the states. But even a large scale dairy farmer friend of mine here on the island avoids as much medication as he can.
I don't have a ton to lose since I have very few cattle right now, and they're not even close to being my main source of income, which are all things I'm grateful for. At this point it would take a lot more than just one death to make me consider vaccination, given I can't be positive of the cause of death, and especially given my target clientele. Call it stupid, but I'm willing to take the risk.
If I was running a feedlot full of stockers or even a dairy operation with all the problematic breeds that entails, I would of course be vaccinating. Those systems can only function with them. But in a pasture-based system with properly bred, healthy cows, many very experienced farmers have demonstrated that it is certainly possible to go vaccine-free.
But like you said, "you do you".
Redgully
Well-known member
Like my vet said, vaccination is like having a firetruck, you don't need it until there's a fire and if there's a fire and you don't have a fire truck it's too late.
Why was he saying that to me, in the over 50 years we've had cattle, we've never vaccinated! In that time the only two unexplained deaths was a calf four weeks after we bought it and a cow 4 months after buying her and she was fully vaxxed. I'm not anti vax but it seems around here there is no real need. Most don't vaccinate.
Why was he saying that to me, in the over 50 years we've had cattle, we've never vaccinated! In that time the only two unexplained deaths was a calf four weeks after we bought it and a cow 4 months after buying her and she was fully vaxxed. I'm not anti vax but it seems around here there is no real need. Most don't vaccinate.
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aaronstiff
Well-known member
Wow, that's great to hear!
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Take note. Redgully lives down under, not much exposure for him.
Do you ever go to someone's farm? Does any farmer ever visits you? Exposure.
You are playing with fire.
But, you do you.
Do you ever go to someone's farm? Does any farmer ever visits you? Exposure.
You are playing with fire.
But, you do you.
chaded
Well-known member
Thanks @TCRanch. We have made a few calls in the past to the vet in Charlottetown (really one of the very few in PEI), but we've never sat down and worked out a program or anything.
To be honest, the majority of the farmers and ranchers that inspired me to get into cattle do not vaccinate at all. Joel Salatin and Greg Judy are 2 I've followed in the states. But even a large scale dairy farmer friend of mine here on the island avoids as much medication as he can.
I don't have a ton to lose since I have very few cattle right now, and they're not even close to being my main source of income, which are all things I'm grateful for. At this point it would take a lot more than just one death to make me consider vaccination, given I can't be positive of the cause of death, and especially given my target clientele. Call it stupid, but I'm willing to take the risk.
If I was running a feedlot full of stockers or even a dairy operation with all the problematic breeds that entails, I would of course be vaccinating. Those systems can only function with them. But in a pasture-based system with properly bred, healthy cows, many very experienced farmers have demonstrated that it is certainly possible to go vaccine-free.
But like you said, "you do you".
I don't know exactly what he does because I'm not there but I have heard Greg Judy talk about vaccinating for black leg initially when they were younger but then they were on their own. Pretty sure he has said the same about sheep as well. He has also said they vaccinate their livestock guardian dogs (parvo, etc.) because it would cruel not to.
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aaronstiff
Well-known member
Ah, I see. Thank you, I had never heard him talk about it.
There is a difference between medications and vaccines.Thanks @TCRanch. We have made a few calls in the past to the vet in Charlottetown (really one of the very few in PEI), but we've never sat down and worked out a program or anything.
To be honest, the majority of the farmers and ranchers that inspired me to get into cattle do not vaccinate at all. Joel Salatin and Greg Judy are 2 I've followed in the states. But even a large scale dairy farmer friend of mine here on the island avoids as much medication as he can.
I don't have a ton to lose since I have very few cattle right now, and they're not even close to being my main source of income, which are all things I'm grateful for. At this point it would take a lot more than just one death to make me consider vaccination, given I can't be positive of the cause of death, and especially given my target clientele. Call it stupid, but I'm willing to take the risk.
If I was running a feedlot full of stockers or even a dairy operation with all the problematic breeds that entails, I would of course be vaccinating. Those systems can only function with them. But in a pasture-based system with properly bred, healthy cows, many very experienced farmers have demonstrated that it is certainly possible to go vaccine-free.
But like you said, "you do you".
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aaronstiff
Well-known member
Sorry, I use them interchangeably, but I should have said vaccines.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Soooo, it would be cruel not to vaccinate the guardian dogs --- but not the cows?????
Sorry, but in my book it is total neglect not to vaccinate. Were you vaccinated as a child? Have you got children you vaccinated?
Vaccinations are NOT antibiotics. You willingly use antibiotics if your animals are sick. Wouldn't you rather keep them healthy with a vaccine so they do not get disqualified as "organic"/"natural" because they got sick and you had to treat them?
Yes, some people say they don't vaccinate. But, if they have an outbreak of some common disease, nothing in their herd will be immune.
Edit - Sorry - yes, you be you - but it is VERY frustrating to someone with good management.
Sorry, but in my book it is total neglect not to vaccinate. Were you vaccinated as a child? Have you got children you vaccinated?
Vaccinations are NOT antibiotics. You willingly use antibiotics if your animals are sick. Wouldn't you rather keep them healthy with a vaccine so they do not get disqualified as "organic"/"natural" because they got sick and you had to treat them?
Yes, some people say they don't vaccinate. But, if they have an outbreak of some common disease, nothing in their herd will be immune.
Edit - Sorry - yes, you be you - but it is VERY frustrating to someone with good management.
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aaronstiff
Well-known member
Just spoke with the previous owner of the cows from Ontario. Said that no one with a closed herd over there ever vaccinates (mine is closed as well). She hadn't even heard of Blackleg before. So I'm in good company.
I think I got a few shots as a baby, but my mom didn't finish all the "recommended" ones, which I'm grateful for. My youngest sister has not had a single one in her life. I'm not married, so I can't comment on my kids getting vaccinated though.
Yes, I would consider using antibiotics if I knew the cow had a good chance of recovering, but I would never sell anything which had been treated. It would be for personal use probably. I know for a fact that the people I will be selling to would prefer I not vaccinate either. They're like me, they want their meat as natural (I call it "normal") as possible.
I find it concerning too that Wikipedia itself says that the efficacy of the vaccine for Blackleg is disputed, citing this paper: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22374118/
Silver
Well-known member
I'm more concerned with my cow (and therefore my meat) being healthy. I want my beef to come from a well maintained herd. That includes vaccinations, medications as required, and parasite control.
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aaronstiff
Well-known member
And that's fine! I think the motto of this thread should be "you do you"
Everyone has their own preferences when it comes to food. It just so happens that my clientele doesn't want that.simme
Old Dumb Guy
I would tend to not follow advice on blackleg vaccination from anyone who has never heard of blackleg. Just seems logical to me. A closed herd is mostly protected from disease brought in by other cattle, but not at all from disease in the dirt or disease from wild animals or from disease from a neighbor's cattle with a shared fence line.
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aaronstiff
Well-known member
I guess the point would be that since she has had very few deaths, and none of them related to blackleg, she has not needed to vaccinate for it, and thus had no knowledge of it.
And yes, blackleg is picked up from the ground, not from other cattle. I mentioned that as an example of cattle owners not vaccinating in general, not specifically for this case. None of my fences are shared either.
wbvs58
Well-known member
Having a closed herd does not help at all with Blackleg or any of the clostridial diseases, the spores are in the ground and lay dormant for many decades, it is when the environmental conditions are right that they become a risk.Just spoke with the previous owner of the cows from Ontario. Said that no one with a closed herd over there ever vaccinates (mine is closed as well). She hadn't even heard of Blackleg before. So I'm in good company.
I think I got a few shots as a baby, but my mom didn't finish all the "recommended" ones, which I'm grateful for. My youngest sister has not had a single one in her life. I'm not married, so I can't comment on my kids getting vaccinated though.
Yes, I would consider using antibiotics if I knew the cow had a good chance of recovering, but I would never sell anything which had been treated. It would be for personal use probably. I know for a fact that the people I will be selling to would prefer I not vaccinate either. They're like me, they want their meat as natural (I call it "normal") as possible.
I find it concerning too that Wikipedia itself says that the efficacy of the vaccine for Blackleg is disputed, citing this paper: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22374118/
As far as your sister goes I hope she never cuts herself and is exposed to the risk of tetanus (one of the clostridial diseases) as there is no real treatment for tetanus still and I believe it is one of the most painfull deaths.
Ken
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aaronstiff
Well-known member
As I said above, the closed herd comment was in reference to vaccinating in general, not Blackleg specifically. And she would of course take a tetanus shot to save her life. It is quite common for the shots to be administered in emergency, not just as a booster every 10 years.
