legumes fixing nitrogen

[dj]

And if the seeds being spread by the cows are not innoculated they won't fix N if the pasture has not been previously planted with innoculated clover seeds? If that's the case what's the point of feeding the seeds to the cows anyway?

regardless of the fertilizer, I need clover to help with edophyte fescue. I could use the tractor and spreader or feed it to the cows and let them spread it

 

[dun]

And if the seeds being spread by the cows are not innoculated they won't fix N if the pasture has not been previously planted with innoculated clover seeds? If that's the case what's the point of feeding the seeds to the cows anyway?

As dj said, clover dilutes the endophyte. The nitrogen fixing part is just a side benefit.

dun

 

[Tod Dague]

if the legume seed isn't innoculated will it fix nitrogen?
how about volunteer going through the cow? some of the places i've found clover i'm pretty sure it got there by the cows consuming clover seed heads with viable seed. so will these plants fix nitrogen in the soil?

if not how much N can the clover handle before it is detrimental?

I'm not sure what 'innoculated' means but, according to everything I've ever seen on the subject of fixing nitrogen or read about legumes, any legume will do it regardless of whether it was planted on purpose or it is volunteer.

In a nutshell, innoculating means mixing specialty microbes with the seed which allows the roots to form nitrogen fixing nodules.

So what you're telling me is that sweet clover (which is basically a volunteer, wild plant), does not fix nitrogen?

Most likely the wild clover has the required microbes that are needed for N fixing provided by ol' maw nature. She's pretty hard to out do. ;-)

 

[Tod Dague]

And if the seeds being spread by the cows are not innoculated they won't fix N if the pasture has not been previously planted with innoculated clover seeds? If that's the case what's the point of feeding the seeds to the cows anyway?

I personally will be using Armadillo Burr clover which is what volenterrs most prevalently in our area. I just want a higher percentage. Most likely the soil will have the microbes needed.

 

[dun]

And if the seeds being spread by the cows are not innoculated they won't fix N if the pasture has not been previously planted with innoculated clover seeds? If that's the case what's the point of feeding the seeds to the cows anyway?

I personally will be using Armadillo Burr clover which is what volenterrs most prevalently in our area. I just want a higher percentage. Most likely the soil will have the microbes needed.

Burr clover isn;t really a clover, it's classified as a medic. I don;t think it is even a legume since it supposedly responds well to applications of nitorgen.

dun

 

[milesvb]

Aggie clover links:

http://overton.tamu.edu/clover/guide/

http://overton.tamu.edu/clover/cool/index.htm

 

[sidney411]

I don't think we even have fescue here, the only time I ever hear the word is on these boards. We've signed up with NCRS to overseed 60 acres w/ clover and I'm more concerned about the N fixing then the endophite issue. I've been tring to figure out the best and easiest way on planting it and letting the cows do the work sounds really nice. Probably wouldn't qualify though.

 

[milesvb]

I'm thinking of trying the Overton Rose variety this time around or maybe mixing it with Crimson since I've been able to get a little of it started here. I'd use Apache arrowleaf if it wasn't candy coated with inoculant. I'm not so sure I'd want to send coated seed through a cow's gut.

Anybody have experience with the Overton Rose clover?

 

[msscamp]

if the legume seed isn't innoculated will it fix nitrogen?
how about volunteer going through the cow? some of the places i've found clover i'm pretty sure it got there by the cows consuming clover seed heads with viable seed. so will these plants fix nitrogen in the soil?

if not how much N can the clover handle before it is detrimental?

I'm not sure what 'innoculated' means but, according to everything I've ever seen on the subject of fixing nitrogen or read about legumes, any legume will do it regardless of whether it was planted on purpose or it is volunteer.

In a nutshell, innoculating means mixing specialty microbes with the seed which allows the roots to form nitrogen fixing nodules.

So what you're telling me is that sweet clover (which is basically a volunteer, wild plant), does not fix nitrogen?

Most likely the wild clover has the required microbes that are needed for N fixing provided by ol' maw nature. She's pretty hard to out do. ;-)

Very good point, yeah she is! :lol: :lol:

 

[KMacGinley]

If ever in the history of that field there has been clover, then the Rhizobacter that fix N will be there.
Sweet clover does fix N. Sweet clover also thins the blood of cattle and could in large amounts cause internal bleeding.

N will not hurt clover, for crying out loud they need it to grow, that is why the good Lord worked out this Simbiotic relationship between Legumes and bacteria. They take N from the air and put it in the soil for the clover and the grass to use.

Grass will use a lot of N and could crowd the clover, that is why with a good stand of clover, no N is needed.

 

[msscamp]

Sweet clover also thins the blood of cattle and could in large amounts cause internal bleeding.

Only if it's moldy.

 

[Tod Dague]

And if the seeds being spread by the cows are not innoculated they won't fix N if the pasture has not been previously planted with innoculated clover seeds? If that's the case what's the point of feeding the seeds to the cows anyway?

I personally will be using Armadillo Burr clover which is what volenterrs most prevalently in our area. I just want a higher percentage. Most likely the soil will have the microbes needed.

Burr clover isn;t really a clover, it's classified as a medic. I don;t think it is even a legume since it supposedly responds well to applications of nitorgen.

dun

Liquid nitrogen will burn it, dry nitrogen will burn it if there is dew on them. If you don't burn it it will be crowded out by the grasses. This is part of the reason that I am having to do some replanting. Legume or not it does fix nitrogen, but not as much as many clovers, and it grows wild in our area. I have tried some of the clovers and they do not grow as long burr and are not as hardy as burr. It can take a lot of abuse just not nitrogen.

 

[KMacGinley]

Sweet clover also thins the blood of cattle and could in large amounts cause internal bleeding.

Only if it's moldy.

Nope, it has Dicoumaril in it naturally which is a blood thinner, mold has nothing to do with it.

 

[msscamp]

Sweet clover also thins the blood of cattle and could in large amounts cause internal bleeding.

Only if it's moldy.

Nope, it has Dicoumaril in it naturally which is a blood thinner, mold has nothing to do with it.

I don't think so. The following link:

http://cropwatch.unl.edu/archives/2003/crop03-18.htm

Provides this statement:

"The biggest risk from sweet clover is in hay, specifically in moldy hay. Spoiled sweet clover produces a chemical called dicoumarin that interferes with metabolism and synthesis of vitamin K. Without vitamin K, blood will not clot properly after an injury and can even seep out of otherwise healthy blood vessels. That's why sweet clover poisoning also is called sweet clover bleeding disease."

We've already got our certificate of graduation from The School of Moldy Sweet Clover. ;-)

 

[Beefy]

why not just toss it out where you want rather than leaving it up to the cows. looks like you could broadcast it more evenly.

 

[cowtrek]

I'm thinking of trying the Overton Rose variety this time around or maybe mixing it with Crimson since I've been able to get a little of it started here. I'd use Apache arrowleaf if it wasn't candy coated with inoculant. I'm not so sure I'd want to send coated seed through a cow's gut.

Anybody have experience with the Overton Rose clover?

The Center for Grazingland and Ranch Management posting board had some good information on it about Overton R-18 Rose Clover on it. Pretty good information over there. I asked Dr. Bade and Dr. Redmon about it and from what I heard they mainly recommend it for East Texas areas, more red acidic soils and such, if I remember correctly. It's pretty pricey and kinda hard to find too. I tried some Apache Arrowleaf clover this past winter and didn't have much luck, but it was dry as a bone most of the winter here and I planted way later than I should hoping for rain. Maybe some will come in this fall from it, guess we'll see. It's quite a bit higher than Louisiana S-1 Little Dutch white clover but is supposed to grow a LOT taller and better yielding. Mine was uninoculated, ordered it from the feed store, so I'm sure if you want to let the cows plant it you can order some from a feedstore without the coating. I just whirlybirded mine on with a spreader and some ryegrass seed. I got the powdered inoculant with it (ground peat) and mixed it in a bucket after pouring a coca-cola over it for a sticker.
As to the original question, most legumes will inoculate to some degree without inoculant, but they nodule MUCH better with the PROPER inoculant. There are different kinds of inoculants and the wrong one will do nothing for you. The inoculant is a type of soil bacteria, hence they are fairly likely to be present in the soil, depending on rainfall, moisture, saturation, pH, past history of growing clovers, etc. Inoculating the seed just allows a head start since the right bacteria is present with the seed in the root area and makes for quick establishment of a nodulating bacterial colony on the roots. The wrong bacteria can infect the roots and prevent effective nodulation too, so I've read. For the cost of inoculant, most recommend inoculating all seed as it's planted to give it the best chance. I don't know if seed inoculant bacteria would survive a trip through the cow, seems like the acidity or rumen bacteria or the digestive conditions would either kill it or overwhelm it to the point of ineffectiveness. Don't know if it'd interfere with the rumen bacteria in the cow either, though I doubt it.

Feeding clover seed in the mineral is an old timers trick. If you haven't had the clover your feeding on the field before, you can always inoculate later. All you have to do is ride around and sprinkle a little inoculant on the ground in the clover and scratch the dirt bit with a rake or drag. You need to mix the inoculant into the soil so sunlight won't kill it on the soil surface. Might not work as well as properly inoculated and properly planted seed, but if the cows are planting it for you you're not going to have an even broadcast stand anyway. You could do the same with volunteer stands spread by the cows. Like I said not as good as properly inoculated planted seed but it should help nodulation. Best way to see is to dig up a couple plants and carefully inspect the roots for nodules. Pinch or cut the nodules open and they should be pink to red inside if they are really fixing N well, if they're gray inside they aren't fixing much N. N fixation is dependent on the amount of N in the soil already if I remember right so fertilized fields may not fix much anyway.

Hope this helps! OL JR

 

[Farmgirl]

Anybody have experience with the Overton Rose clover?

Miles,

Don't have experience but do have a contact for getting the seed. PM me if you want.

Farmgirl

 

[cowtrek]

Anybody have experience with the Overton Rose clover?

Miles,

Don't have experience but do have a contact for getting the seed. PM me if you want.

Farmgirl

Where'd you get your seed?? I couldn't even find anybody who could order it for me. Thanks Farmgirl! OL' JR

 

[Farmgirl]

Miles, Cowtrek,

Here is the contact I have for getting Rose Clover seed.

http://tfss.tamu.edu
Steve Brown is who I talked to. He told me he could get the seed from Oregon where it is grown. Now to September is the time frame we discussed on getting an order placed.

We looked at it but probably will plant Crimson. Need to do more work in our pastures before we plant a perennial and before we spend that much money.

Hope this helps.

Farmgirl

 

[milesvb]

Thanks Farmgirl.