King Ten questions for Hereford76

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Hereford76

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northtexas":49jyoweq said:
In previous posts you have said that King Ten daughters were among the best to ever walk your ranch's pastures but you said his sons were disappointments.

1. What about them disappointed you.
2. Did any of these sons produce daughters similar to King Ten's (ie: were they maternal bulls even if their performance was disappointing)
3. Did these daughters (King Ten daughters) produce herd bull quality sons?

Thanks for any reply.

I think the year we AI'd to K10 we got something like 8 calves by him out of some of our best cows (most of the cows would have been either daughters or grandaughters of our 50Y son). We had 3 females born and I think around 5 bulls born and all the bull calves were all steered at weaning - big birth weights, lots of white, and just kind of duds, no muscle expression, no performance, straight haired, not the kind we could have sold as range bulls. looking back we should have tried a son to see what kind of cows they might have made - but we really didn't appreciate the bull for several years after we used him - well, who really did.

the 3 daughters we got were tremendous - an old time hereford breeder from wisconsin bought two of them and did quite well with them. the best of the three was the 8501 cow i posted a picture of recently. it didn't matter what you bred her to it was the top female or bull every year and i think they were all herd bull quality (and i don't say that lightly - i would love to have semen on any one of the sons she raised here). we never did try any polled or L1 cross on the K10 cows, so i couldn't speak for that, but the canadian horned bulls we were using then crossed excellent. I've had several conversations with hereford breeders around me that used K10 and they all said the same thing, you had to cross him on a big old ruggid, looser made canadian cow to make it work

there was a huge difference between the direct sons and daughters that we got by him. back then we quit using K10 because of it. we have always wanted to use a bull that sired good females and sons and he just didn't do it. i would use a direct son today though just by going off of the females we had by him.
 

JHH

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Hereford76":3aaby7jk said:
there was a huge difference between the direct sons and daughters that we got by him. back then we quit using K10 because of it. we have always wanted to use a bull that sired good females and sons and he just didn't do it. i would use a direct son today though just by going off of the females we had by him.

Doesnt Mill creek ranch have a son ( 595 bull?) I liked the pic of him but never spent enough time calling them to get ahold of them. I think Wiese and sons also used him and took some to denver but I never heard how they done or if they were for sale.
 
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Hereford76

Hereford76

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JHH":1k1o6ua7 said:
Hereford76":1k1o6ua7 said:
there was a huge difference between the direct sons and daughters that we got by him. back then we quit using K10 because of it. we have always wanted to use a bull that sired good females and sons and he just didn't do it. i would use a direct son today though just by going off of the females we had by him.

Doesnt Mill creek ranch have a son ( 595 bull?) I liked the pic of him but never spent enough time calling them to get ahold of them. I think Wiese and sons also used him and took some to denver but I never heard how they done or if they were for sale.

i saw pictures of the mill creek bull and to tell you the truth he reminded me a lot of the calves we got that we steered - but i was going to wait till they or someone had some daughters of his get a few years production history before and then look into it. weise used his k10 semen on some polled cows i think.
 

Herefords.US

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Generally speaking, I've also heard the same criticism of Achiever. They say it's really hard to get a herd bull out of him, but his daughters are tremendous.

George
 

KNERSIE

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Herefords.US":15fr1nz4 said:
Generally speaking, I've also heard the same criticism of Achiever. They say it's really hard to get a herd bull out of him, but his daughters are tremendous.

George

Its often the case with bulls out of a very maternal line, in the case of DR Achiever, FHF 8403 Starbuch 19H is more than enough bull for me, pity his semen isn't approved for export.
 

smnherf

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Herefords.US":1n8zalhb said:
Generally speaking, I've also heard the same criticism of Achiever. They say it's really hard to get a herd bull out of him, but his daughters are tremendous.

George

I think it is time for us to reevaluate the definition of a herd bull. Haveing the biggest thickest bull in the country doesn't do me any good if his daughters can't or wont raise a calf. Aren't we all in the cow business after all.

I can't help but wonder where the Hereford breed would be at if the breed had used a lot more of some of these highly maternal bull like Achiever, Yampa Dominator, King ten, and many others rather than so many of the popular bulls that could have dried up a milk cow in one generation.
 

KNERSIE

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I can't help but wonder where the Hereford breed would be at if the breed had used a lot more of some of these highly maternal bull like Achiever, Yampa Dominator, King ten, and many others rather than so many of the popular bulls that could have dried up a milk cow in one generation.

Afterall Herefords' traditional strength is in building cowherds that work for you. I believe that even today the powers that be still misunderstand the role of the hereford, not only in the USA, but even here in SA. There seems to always be a certain fraction that are doing their utmost to make a hereford coloured continental.

The funny thing is many of the bulls of the past with the dubious pedigrees really dried the milk up where you would expect them to sire milky daughters.
 

Aero

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Herefords.US":3agjdv52 said:
Generally speaking, I've also heard the same criticism of Achiever. They say it's really hard to get a herd bull out of him, but his daughters are tremendous.

George

it sounds like yall are confused. I think you have identified a real maternal bull and instead of using that type, you cant wait to mess it up with what you think a bull should be.

if an animal's gentics are maternal, they wont have a lot of performance, size or extreme muscle. if they have these things, they are not maternal! They may have some maternl traits, but you can have one or the other - not both. the only way for an animal to be both is to be really good at none of them.
 

Brandonm22

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KNERSIE":35ml0bou said:
The funny thing is many of the bulls of the past with the dubious pedigrees really dried the milk up where you would expect them to sire milky daughters.

Exactly, the Simmental charge was thrown at a lot of the growthiest lines in the 70s and 80s. Ironically, some of those sames lines produced cows that could not milk worth a flip and I never saw a Simmental or Simmental cross that had trouble milking....in fact the biggest knock on Simmentals (esp in the 80s/90s) was that they milked TOO MUCH for the cows to hold up over time.
 

Herefords.US

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Aero":1dekz5tp said:
Herefords.US":1dekz5tp said:
Generally speaking, I've also heard the same criticism of Achiever. They say it's really hard to get a herd bull out of him, but his daughters are tremendous.

George

it sounds like yall are confused. I think you have identified a real maternal bull and instead of using that type, you cant wait to mess it up with what you think a bull should be.

if an animal's gentics are maternal, they wont have a lot of performance, size or extreme muscle. if they have these things, they are not maternal! They may have some maternl traits, but you can have one or the other - not both. the only way for an animal to be both is to be really good at none of them.

I disagree with your statement (as I understand it!). For instance, Remitall Keynote 20X bred performance, size, and muscle, yet his daughters are very "maternal" cows. And no confusion on my part - I sought out Achiever daughters and semen soon after getting back into the Hereford business!

George
 

KNERSIE

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Aero":11k40p3v said:
Herefords.US":11k40p3v said:
Generally speaking, I've also heard the same criticism of Achiever. They say it's really hard to get a herd bull out of him, but his daughters are tremendous.

George

it sounds like yall are confused. I think you have identified a real maternal bull and instead of using that type, you cant wait to mess it up with what you think a bull should be.

if an animal's gentics are maternal, they wont have a lot of performance, size or extreme muscle. if they have these things, they are not maternal! They may have some maternl traits, but you can have one or the other - not both. the only way for an animal to be both is to be really good at none of them.

Most of us who try and discuss issues other than "look how cute my pet bull is" have enough understanding of genetics to know that muscle and milk are antagonistic traits.

As far as you statement goes that I've underlined, for sustainable low input beef farming pushing either extreme will hurt your bottom line. But luckily there are bulls out there that sires enough milk and maternal quality with enough muscle and performance to meet the requirements of the breeder who wants moderate easy doing grass genetics without going back to the ponies of yesteryear. Granted these bulls are few and far between, but they are out there.

Middle of the road bulls in all aspects will do good for more herds than they would do harm
 

Aero

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KNERSIE":3p1typz0 said:
Most of us who try and discuss issues other than "look how cute my pet bull is" have enough understanding of genetics to know that muscle and milk are antagonistic traits.

most of that post was made for the other 80%; you (and a few others) are in the 20%.

yes, it comes down to extreme avoidance. but my whole point was to show that you cant breed a maternal bull to a maternal cow and get many terminal bulls. and vice versa.

the antagonism that worries me more is between muscle and fertility.
 

Herefords.US

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northtexas":125e3f1u said:
We need to focus on the maternal aspects of the breed. (In my opinion).

I agree, but I still want them to be as "beefy" as possible while still maintaining fertility and maternal ability. No doubt that means working toward optimums rather than extremes.

George
 

KNERSIE

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the antagonism that worries me more is between muscle and fertility.

The problem is that the point of equilibrium isn't at the same place for every female bovine. Like you've said its all about avoiding extremes, or in Bonsma's words; "nature doesn't tolerate extremes"
 

knabe

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Aero":1zwbopv8 said:
the only way for an animal to be both is to be really good at none of them.


no outlier traits. easier to change.
 

JHH

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Hereford76":1sk74zjv said:
JHH":1sk74zjv said:
Hereford76":1sk74zjv said:
there was a huge difference between the direct sons and daughters that we got by him. back then we quit using K10 because of it. we have always wanted to use a bull that sired good females and sons and he just didn't do it. i would use a direct son today though just by going off of the females we had by him.

Doesnt Mill creek ranch have a son ( 595 bull?) I liked the pic of him but never spent enough time calling them to get ahold of them. I think Wiese and sons also used him and took some to denver but I never heard how they done or if they were for sale.

i saw pictures of the mill creek bull and to tell you the truth he reminded me a lot of the calves we got that we steered - but i was going to wait till they or someone had some daughters of his get a few years production history before and then look into it. weise used his k10 semen on some polled cows i think.


Anyone here use that 595 bull yet? Just thinking that someone surely got ahold of some semen and tried it?
 

WichitaLineMan

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They have semen now. They had issues for a while.

Mill Creek is terrible about returning an email. Never did return mine until George intervened on my behalf.

You can contact Mr. Turner directly via phone and he can probably get you some semen shipped.

I have his phone number somewhere in my office, if anyone is interested PM me and I will give it to you.
 

Herefords.US

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WichitaLineMan":pwsdtp9w said:
They have semen now. They had issues for a while.

Mill Creek is terrible about returning an email. Never did return mine until George intervened on my behalf.

When I talked to Dave Breiner of Mill Creek Ranch (about liveauctions.tv and their stinking subscription to view the National sale over the Internet), he admitted to me that he had to wait for his wife to come home before he could e-mail me something. For that reason, I think e-mailing Mill Creek is probably not the best way to talk to them.

I'd try:
Dave's Cell: (785) 456-4790

George
 

BIZIN

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We had a King Ten grand son that dad bought in 1994 from Rodney Gamble. Don't know if he is still around. Gave us one of our best herd bulls and not too many females though. The ones we did keep were good cows, small to moderate framed but didnt always raise the biggest calves. Only one left in the herd, she is 13 this year.
 
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