Keep or breed back?

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What would you do?

  • Keep her?

    Votes: 16 69.6%
  • Sell her?

    Votes: 7 30.4%

  • Total voters
    23
Naw, its not. Its widely accepted that singling out herd animals is asking for trouble. Especially when their young are involved.

You may choose to operate differently and that's ok, but you are going against their natural instincts, which comes with it's own problems.

In many operations, such as ours, I'd really question her mothering ability if she had just stayed in that pen and not thrown a fit.

I had to get a dead calf from a momma a year ago. It was heart breaking. She was trying to nudge it and she has wore the ground to the dirt. She was skinny and probably about the give out from fighting off buzzards but she dis not leave that calf. It took some trickery to get the calf away from her. She was going to stay by that dead calf if it killed her.

That's the kind of cows that earns their keep here.
Had the same situation with a cow back in January 2020, big ol hereford cow wore out from trying to fight off buzzards. She stayed in that same area for a couple days even after got the calf gone. Wasn't going to cull her but did after she didn't breed back. A few days after that went out one morning and found a first calf heifer practically standing over her new calf with a bunch of buzzards surrounding her. Got them ran off, and all ended well that time for that that one
I cull pretty hard for disposition, but when it comes to calving time I don't mind protective cows at all. With a never ending supply of black buzzards and coyotes, our cows have to be protective.
 
She was just pretty stirred up from her calf being not right and missing, I'm sure.
I tag her calves in the field with her standing right there. So no issues like that.
I've lost count of how many times she has circled back to that barn. Poor gal.
It sucks...
 
With the current feeder prices I am looking for reasons to cull cows. We manage a two strikes and you are out team:
1) No calf
2) Tore up the pen

If calves were $2.50 per lb. and hay was cheap - - then I would be tempted to retain her. But, with current prices she is a major money loser. Time
 
I'd keep her. She's a good cow and it wasn't her fault. If you keep her you get a calf next year. If you get a different cow you get a calf next year. Cull the @$#€% that stepped on the calf.
 
So I lost a calf. Cows and calves have been hanging out in the barn. One calf managed to get stepped on. I saw him down there by himself, and thought it was odd, so went to check on him. Had to put him down. Upon butchering said calf, we found a large area on his right side that has clotted up pretty bad. Calf was 6 weeks old. Made some roasts and whole filet and strips. (Tiny of coarse)
Anyway...

I skinned him and penned mama. Was going to graft a bottle calf I have. Shes never been penned up really. This is her 2nd calf. Raised a good one last year and this one wouldve been a better one. She tore the pen up. I dont have a great pen. Basically just a bunch of panels made into a round pen. Good enough for reasonable cows. Lol

I don't think I want to fight her. I could possibly load her up and take to a friends with a better pen and try to graft. But that's a good amount of work on a tight schedule this time of year.

Anyways.. should I give her another chance?
Pretty mad about it right now and I figure I better think on it.
 
He was alive. Just injured from being stepped on.
RUBBER. I was expecting filet texture.
Made the decision to scrap that idea. Dog food it is.

I did save the hide.
My original plan was to graft my black bottle heifer.
Gave up on that plan too!

Thanks everyone.
I'm still mulling it over
So I lost a calf. Cows and calves have been hanging out in the barn. One calf managed to get stepped on. I saw him down there by himself, and thought it was odd, so went to check on him. Had to put him down. Upon butchering said calf, we found a large area on his right side that has clotted up pretty bad. Calf was 6 weeks old. Made some roasts and whole filet and strips. (Tiny of coarse)
Anyway...

I skinned him and penned mama. Was going to graft a bottle calf I have. Shes never been penned up really. This is her 2nd calf. Raised a good one last year and this one wouldve been a better one. She tore the pen up. I dont have a great pen. Basically just a bunch of panels made into a round pen. Good enough for reasonable cows. Lol

I don't think I want to fight her. I could possibly load her up and take to a friends with a better pen and try to graft. But that's a good amount of work on a tight schedule this time of year.

Anyways.. should I give her another chance?
Pretty mad about it right now and I figure I better think on it.
From an economical position you are better off selling her and putting that money back into a third stage replacement cow. My guess is that she'll turn "spooky" on you and create it's own set of problems. I get rid of spooky and mean cattle the next time i.
 
Naw, its not. Its widely accepted that singling out herd animals is asking for trouble. Especially when their young are involved.

You may choose to operate differently and that's ok, but you are going against their natural instincts, which comes with it's own problems.

In many operations, such as ours, I'd really question her mothering ability if she had just stayed in that pen and not thrown a fit.

I had to get a dead calf from a momma a year ago. It was heart breaking. She was trying to nudge it and she has wore the ground to the dirt. She was skinny and probably about the give out from fighting off buzzards but she dis not leave that calf. It took some trickery to get the calf away from her. She was going to stay by that dead calf if it killed her.

That's the kind of cows that earns their keep here.

That is incorrect, on just about every level. Pretty much every breed association measures Docility/Disposition based upon BIF standards. Please see attached screenshot taken directly from the BIF website.

-Under the bottom section, "pen scoring" the definition for "aggressive" states: "will likely run into fences if alone in pen"

-Under the top section, "chute scoring" again under the "aggressive" category it states "may exhibit attack behavior when handled alone."

Disposition is purposefully measured while there is stress to the cattle, because stress brings poor behavior/disposition to the surface.

Yes, cattle are herd animals. They prefer to be with the herd and it does lower the stress level. However them being alone should NEVER be "asking for trouble"....if it is then it's pretty clear that you have bottom of the barrel disposition in your herd...that's based of BIF definitions and how Doc EPDs are measured across most breed associations. You can argue with the BIF standards...but they exist for a reason. They measure docility when they are alone for the same reason they put them in a pen or a chute...because it brings negative disposition to the surface.

The Angus Bull I have out of the Wye line is a +0% DOC ACC (95%, top 5% of the breed for Docility). There is a NOTICABLE difference in how he acts when he is alone another angus bull I have that is a +5% DOC ACC....But he acts very similar to the Hereford bull with similar DOC ACC. Bulls with that kind of DOC ACC are pretty much fine being alone and exhibit pretty much zero poor behaviors. My 8 year old daughter can load him into a trailer from a round pen from the ground just using a sorting stick. Animals with top of breed docility EPDs that are handled using low stress techniques are pretty much fine when they are alone. That's not my opinion. That's breed standards in how DOC is measured.

To the cow specific part...

There is a difference between showing distress and bad disposition.

1. A cow that has been worked and handled properly knows the difference between a predator and a human. She knows the difference between a working dog she has been around since birth and someone else's dog.

-Case in point, yesterday I went out and was tagging newborn calves. I go out, by myself within 48 hours of birth, sit on them and tag (band if necessary and give a tetanus shot), and It takes about 3 min per calf, less for heifers. The cows should be concerned, looking at me...pacing around, showing concern for their calf, but not making any aggressive moves towards me. However, yesterday the owner of the lease ground had his dog get out and came running towards me...the 5 cows that were near to me with their calves immediately changed attitude and went after that dog hard. just about stomped him to death...wasn't good for the dog. Their reaction to my aussie is very different. Docile behavior towards humans is NOT equivalent in any way as poor maternals or predator control...unless you act like a predator around your cows from birth...if that's the case...you need to go to some stockmanship schools and learn how to work your cattle better.

-My cows spend time up on BLM land in the mountains...with bears, mountain lions, etc. At home and on the lease ground they are overrun by coyotes. Predators are not a source of loss for me...and I wouldn't want to be a predator anywhere near my cows with how they are. But I am perfectly comfortable walking through the middle of them with the kids.


2. A cow that lost her calf should be showing distress...she should be showing signs of being distressed, pacing...running around anxiously...mooing like crazy. That's normal. It's hormonal. It's instinctual. Tearing up a fence or pen is NOT normal distress. That's where you cross the line to bad disposition. Again that's not my opinion...that's how docility is measured.

Maybe you have a different definition of disposition and docility than the BIF does....but their definition is the standard for most breed associations...and the observations I have on cows, bulls, and calves disposition match what they say.

There's a lot of people out there who think they have great cattle...till you get them alone and work with them. I help local people work their cattle...and hear them brag about how good their cows are...then we work them or get them alone doctoring them and they act rank as hell and I hear the excuses start coming that "that's just how they are when they are alone" or "that's just how they act when you work them"....and I go home to my cows incredibly thankful for what I have.

People not understanding docility and how good cows should react under stress...not culling properly, not evaluating properly, and making excuses and false equivalencies, is how guys get hurt and killed. To each their own....but if you have cattle doing the above...you don't have good disposition in your herd...period.
 

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That is incorrect, on just about every level. Pretty much every breed association measures Docility/Disposition based upon BIF standards. Please see attached screenshot taken directly from the BIF website.

-Under the bottom section, "pen scoring" the definition for "aggressive" states: "will likely run into fences if alone in pen"

-Under the top section, "chute scoring" again under the "aggressive" category it states "may exhibit attack behavior when handled alone."

Disposition is purposefully measured while there is stress to the cattle, because stress brings poor behavior/disposition to the surface.

Yes, cattle are herd animals. They prefer to be with the herd and it does lower the stress level. However them being alone should NEVER be "asking for trouble"....if it is then it's pretty clear that you have bottom of the barrel disposition in your herd...that's based of BIF definitions and how Doc EPDs are measured across most breed associations. You can argue with the BIF standards...but they exist for a reason. They measure docility when they are alone for the same reason they put them in a pen or a chute...because it brings negative disposition to the surface.

The Angus Bull I have out of the Wye line is a +0% DOC ACC (95%, top 5% of the breed for Docility). There is a NOTICABLE difference in how he acts when he is alone another angus bull I have that is a +5% DOC ACC....But he acts very similar to the Hereford bull with similar DOC ACC. Bulls with that kind of DOC ACC are pretty much fine being alone and exhibit pretty much zero poor behaviors. My 8 year old daughter can load him into a trailer from a round pen from the ground just using a sorting stick. Animals with top of breed docility EPDs that are handled using low stress techniques are pretty much fine when they are alone. That's not my opinion. That's breed standards in how DOC is measured.

To the cow specific part...

There is a difference between showing distress and bad disposition.

1. A cow that has been worked and handled properly knows the difference between a predator and a human. She knows the difference between a working dog she has been around since birth and someone else's dog.

-Case in point, yesterday I went out and was tagging newborn calves. I go out, by myself within 48 hours of birth, sit on them and tag (band if necessary and give a tetanus shot), and It takes about 3 min per calf, less for heifers. The cows should be concerned, looking at me...pacing around, showing concern for their calf, but not making any aggressive moves towards me. However, yesterday the owner of the lease ground had his dog get out and came running towards me...the 5 cows that were near to me with their calves immediately changed attitude and went after that dog hard. just about stomped him to death...wasn't good for the dog. Their reaction to my aussie is very different. Docile behavior towards humans is NOT equivalent in any way as poor maternals or predator control...unless you act like a predator around your cows from birth...if that's the case...you need to go to some stockmanship schools and learn how to work your cattle better.

-My cows spend time up on BLM land in the mountains...with bears, mountain lions, etc. At home and on the lease ground they are overrun by coyotes. Predators are not a source of loss for me...and I wouldn't want to be a predator anywhere near my cows with how they are. But I am perfectly comfortable walking through the middle of them with the kids.


2. A cow that lost her calf should be showing distress...she should be showing signs of being distressed, pacing...running around anxiously...mooing like crazy. That's normal. It's hormonal. It's instinctual. Tearing up a fence or pen is NOT normal distress. That's where you cross the line to bad disposition. Again that's not my opinion...that's how docility is measured.

Maybe you have a different definition of disposition and docility than the BIF does....but their definition is the standard for most breed associations...and the observations I have on cows, bulls, and calves disposition match what they say.

There's a lot of people out there who think they have great cattle...till you get them alone and work with them. I help local people work their cattle...and hear them brag about how good their cows are...then we work them or get them alone doctoring them and they act rank as hell and I hear the excuses start coming that "that's just how they are when they are alone" or "that's just how they act when you work them"....and I go home to my cows incredibly thankful for what I have.

People not understanding docility and how good cows should react under stress...not culling properly, not evaluating properly, and making excuses and false equivalencies, is how guys get hurt and killed. To each their own....but if you have cattle doing the above...you don't have good disposition in your herd...period.
That score is about as useful as a show ring for beef cattle producers. It has been debated over and over the slippery slopes things like that can cause after seeing what show people have done to cattle or any one over emphasizing single traits.
 
I have zero confidence in the Docility EPD. We AI bred some to a bull that was touted as being at the top of the Angus breed for docility EPD's. The calves that we got from him were bat$&/# crazy, other calves the same year from other Angus bulls were typical decent disposition calves. The same cows that had those crazy calves had much better disposition calves by other bulls in the years following that.
 
I have zero confidence in the Docility EPD. We AI bred some to a bull that was touted as being at the top of the Angus breed for docility EPD's. The calves that we got from him were bat$&/# crazy, other calves the same year from other Angus bulls were typical decent disposition calves. The same cows that had those crazy calves had much better disposition calves by other bulls in the years following that.

EPDs are a great tool when used properly...and when the inputs for them are done by people who do it the right way. DOC ACC is only as good as the people who did the scoring. If the inputs are junk...then the EPDs will be junk. I love genetics and I won't nerd out too much on the issue...but there's a reason why it is "estimated." It gives you probabilities not certainty. Nothing is 100% heritable, and even if all the inputs are done perfectly...it's going to give you reliable probabilities...but still only probabilities all the same. I'm one of the outliers who loves math, genetics, etc...and I enjoy using that knowledge to shape genotypes and phenotypes in my herd. I think it is a useful tool, but it can be misused/abused, etc. It's not for everyone, and not everyone enjoys the things I do.

Any idiot can try and do the BIF steps to measure DOC...but that doesn't mean they will do it well. Which comes down to a breeder issue, not an EPD issue. There's good breeders out there who go above and beyond and provide disposition scores in addition to EPDs (and a lot of other scores in addition)...and use genetics and practices that are reflected in the EPDs. I will say the EPDs from my bulls and their progeny have been as advertised...but they also had a lot more evaluation on them than was "required."

The Docc score and test is a good tool to measure it quickly...and it exists for a reason as a tool of measurement and works when done properly...the last 2 words there being key.

It's a tool...and it's only as good as the people using it.
 
That score is about as useful as a show ring for beef cattle producers. It has been debated over and over the slippery slopes things like that can cause after seeing what show people have done to cattle or any one over emphasizing single traits.

There's a lot of people who would disagree, both from a research and an application perspective. It is useful and a great tool....WHEN USED PROPERLY by people who know what they are doing.

You are absolutely right. Concentrating on any single trait to the exclusion of other traits leads to a wreck. WW, YW, and $F values are key examples of that in the beef industry.

I wasn't advocating for concentrating on that to the exclusion of other traits....but it is a requirement in the traits I breed for. I do believe absolutely that you should be looking at a multitude of traits when it comes to selection and culling. You should be looking at animals and your herd holistically...but...you should also have a list of "automatic no-go's" that results in culling no matter what else is good. Disposition is one of those for me. I actually have a pretty long list of things that will get a cow/replacement heifer culled without hesitation. I don't just keep something because it has good disposition....but I do cull in a heartbeat for bad disposition, regardless of what other good traits they have.
 
EPDs are a great tool when used properly...and when the inputs for them are done by people who do it the right way. DOC ACC is only as good as the people who did the scoring. If the inputs are junk...then the EPDs will be junk. I love genetics and I won't nerd out too much on the issue...but there's a reason why it is "estimated." It gives you probabilities not certainty. Nothing is 100% heritable, and even if all the inputs are done perfectly...it's going to give you reliable probabilities...but still only probabilities all the same. I'm one of the outliers who loves math, genetics, etc...and I enjoy using that knowledge to shape genotypes and phenotypes in my herd. I think it is a useful tool, but it can be misused/abused, etc. It's not for everyone, and not everyone enjoys the things I do.

Any idiot can try and do the BIF steps to measure DOC...but that doesn't mean they will do it well. Which comes down to a breeder issue, not an EPD issue. There's good breeders out there who go above and beyond and provide disposition scores in addition to EPDs (and a lot of other scores in addition)...and use genetics and practices that are reflected in the EPDs. I will say the EPDs from my bulls and their progeny have been as advertised...but they also had a lot more evaluation on them than was "required."

The Docc score and test is a good tool to measure it quickly...and it exists for a reason as a tool of measurement and works when done properly...the last 2 words there being key.

It's a tool...and it's only as good as the people using it.
I agree that epds are tools. Some epds are more accurate than others. The bull that I am referring to is one from a well known program, and was marketed through a well known AI company.
 
I agree that epds are tools. Some epds are more accurate than others. The bull that I am referring to is one from a well known program, and was marketed through a well known AI company.

Unpopular opinion: most bulls available through "well known programs" I wouldn't consider using. I've had a few cows out of hoover dam. They didn't last long. The cows I have out of the wye line are just better for what I look for.

Wye genetics are well known, but not really mainstream or popular....but good grief the difference in quality of the cows is huge. These bulls selling for 7 figures I wouldn't consider AIing to.
 
Gotta say, I'm intrigued with the feedback on this thread. A lot of insightful perspective from many different operations & methods of management. That said, docility is extremely important in my world but I know my herd and which cows tend to get a little testy when they calve. It's not the end of the world if a calf doesn't get tagged/worked day 1; picking my battles. But from then on, they better be on their best behavior - around me. A distressed mama is completely understandable. Tearing up the corral is unacceptable.

EPD's on bulls? There's always that one that looks great on paper but turns out to be bat shyt crazy. And yet, I've retained heifers from said bull (still have them). Environment, IMO, plays a bigger role in disposition.

But back to Murray's original question: personally, I wouldn't keep that particular cow. But he may have legit reasons and probably why he posted in the first place. Plus, in our general area, the cull market is down.
 
Unpopular opinion: most bulls available through "well known programs" I wouldn't consider using. I've had a few cows out of hoover dam. They didn't last long. The cows I have out of the wye line are just better for what I look for.

Wye genetics are well known, but not really mainstream or popular....but good grief the difference in quality of the cows is huge. These bulls selling for 7 figures I wouldn't consider AIing to.
I'm kind of in agreement with you on the mainstream big money bulls, after several years of experience with trying to keep up with using the new bulls of the month. Anybody just has to find what works for them.
 
That's disapointing that people would purposely try to breed the god given, mothering ability of a cow, out. Sad world it's becoming.

They aren't. Maternals and Disposition do not have an inverse correlation. See above comment
 
I may be dreaming but I thought I remember a comment saying the "pens" were not real good and a bunch of panels put together.

Nothing about that comment makes me think this is a bad cow, hell bent on tearing things up, especially given the circumstances.

I have no problem with people choosing what they want to raise but dont think your preference is some how the standard for the industry. A person saying they want a pet cow goes in the same folder as saying you want a black cow or a tall cow... it's a preference.
 

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