keep open cows?

[DiamondSCattleCo]

If your looking at profitability here keeping open cows makes more sense than buying bred replacements or pairs for between $1400 and 1700.

a 1200# cow is roughly going to bring $600

feed for this winter, summer, then next winter will be somewhere around $300 roughly.

So that give you a $900 animal

that $1700 pair your going to buy to replace her will cost about $250 to feed over the summer and next winter.

that makes her $1950 if her calf turns out well or and doesn't have ear or poor potentional or w/e the case you can probably assume $600 that brings her back to $1350

so your still $450 ahead keeping her

Right up until that same cow comes up open again next year, or maybe not next year, but the year after that. Sure, you're taking a chance that the replacement will end up doing the same doggoned thing to you, but its an unknown and chances are it will be a good animal.

With the open cow, you know there is an issue. Why take a chance?

Rod

 

[msscamp]

To me a cow is nothing more than a babymaker. IF she ain't doing that she ain't doing her job. Its hard enough to make anything off of a calf that you have invested a years worth of upkeep on its mother. Add two years to that equation and payback on a cow takes a long time. I like to cut my losses early before they mount up. Replacing her with one that is more profitable. My way of thinking on a cow is she puts grass in one end and a calf per year out the other end.

I'm not sure I understand this. A cow that you know the genetics on, the temperament of and the quality of calves that she has and raises is a given and, therefore, more predictable than an unknown, newly bought cow is it not? Maybe it's a difference in commercial vs registered in my mind as we raise registered cattle and there are some significant differences in the two.

 

[Jake]

If your looking at profitability here keeping open cows makes more sense than buying bred replacements or pairs for between $1400 and 1700.

a 1200# cow is roughly going to bring $600

feed for this winter, summer, then next winter will be somewhere around $300 roughly.

So that give you a $900 animal

that $1700 pair your going to buy to replace her will cost about $250 to feed over the summer and next winter.

that makes her $1950 if her calf turns out well or and doesn't have ear or poor potentional or w/e the case you can probably assume $600 that brings her back to $1350

so your still $450 ahead keeping her

Right up until that same cow comes up open again next year, or maybe not next year, but the year after that. Sure, you're taking a chance that the replacement will end up doing the same doggoned thing to you, but its an unknown and chances are it will be a good animal.

With the open cow, you know there is an issue. Why take a chance?

Rod

My a year from this calving season you'll have her replacement from your known genetic base and known potential (a bred heifer) ready for production and squirting out her first calf. I could come up with more numbers but I've crunched it many times, it's more profitable to keep her ONE more year most preferably calving in the call so you can sell her off as a pair around this time of year. She can stay around longer and make money if she stays open but there is no reason to risk it and she should be liquidated after the first year but it's definately cheaper to keep her. AND yoru not losing the genetics you've built up over the years buy bringing in outside genetics

 

[WORANCH]

3) There are too many good cows in the world to keep a problem one around whose not earning her keep.


Rod

That one statement says enough

I agree . open cows are culls . Why feed them over the winter . And if they did calve next fall they may not rebred durring the winter with a calf at side. Sell

 

[msscamp]

Rod, you're situtation cannot be compared to dph or to mine. You're coming out of the effects of the BSE problem and the border being closed.

Actually, during the border closure, my culling program pretty much stopped. Older open cows were worth 4 cents per pound. Even young stuff was only selling for 20 cents. So I kept the open and problem stuff here until prices come back up. Even if I got 1 calf in 2 years, they still paid for themselves as my hay/grain is cheap. Plus I refused to deliver an animal to a packer for 4 cents/lb, watch that same packer sell it for hamburger at $1.50/lb, and see it turn up in Safeway as lean ground beef for $3/lb. Call me stubborn :lol:

I didn't realize prices got that low. I would call you determined! That's always a good thing! ;-)

I cull hard when prices are good. My reasoning, and it may not be sound :

1) If you're only seeing a small percentage of cows open or very late, then chances are good its not a nutrition or bull based problem. Its almost certainly the cow.

I'm not going to argue with you on that point, providing it's a young cow. An older cow that has delivered every year previously requires a little more thought.

2) It may only be a one time problem, but I only have a certain amount of land base in which to be productive. I only want the absolute best animals running on that land.

I can understand where you are coming from on this one as well, but once again, there are other factors to be considered.

3) There are too many good cows in the world to keep a problem one around whose not earning her keep.

Very valid point.

4) With my purebreds, fertility is especially important. If they don't catch, I'm not going to chance perpetuating a genetic flaw. Maybe they only miss once, and then never miss again, but genetics are still very much a guessing game, so I'm not going to take the chance that I'm leaving a regressive gene behind that I (or a buyer) may throw back to.

Another very valid point.

Without meaning to hijack the thread, I also cull the cows of the bottom 10% of calves, based on feedlot performance. It takes more than once showing up in the bottom side to earn a cow an X for performance but they don't get too many chances.

Yet another very valid point.

When my purebred operation gets moving better, I'll be culling even harder, especially on the performance end.

Rod

You have given me a lot of things to think about and I appreciate that very much. Thank you.

 

[JHH]

3) There are too many good cows in the world to keep a problem one around whose not earning her keep.


Rod

That one statement says enough

Yes, it does. I'm not going to argue with that statement. I think I need to re-think a few things. Thank you, gentlemen!

If your looking at profitability here keeping open cows makes more sense than buying bred replacements or pairs for between $1400 and 1700.

a 1200# cow is roughly going to bring $600

feed for this winter, summer, then next winter will be somewhere around $300 roughly.

So that give you a $900 animal

that $1700 pair your going to buy to replace her will cost about $250 to feed over the summer and next winter.

that makes her $1950 if her calf turns out well or and doesn't have ear or poor potentional or w/e the case you can probably assume $600 that brings her back to $1350

so your still $450 ahead keeping her

I like your #s , Makes people think. Made me think about it

JHH

 

[Jake]

it's all about the end $$ the only way you can buy something back and make it work is if you buy CHEAP BM cows for around $600-650 and then sell them again after you wean the calves and put a heifer pair of your own back in her place next year.

 

[D.R. Cattle]

3) There are too many good cows in the world to keep a problem one around whose not earning her keep.


Rod

That one statement says enough

Yes, it does. I'm not going to argue with that statement. I think I need to re-think a few things. Thank you, gentlemen!

If your looking at profitability here keeping open cows makes more sense than buying bred replacements or pairs for between $1400 and 1700.

a 1200# cow is roughly going to bring $600

feed for this winter, summer, then next winter will be somewhere around $300 roughly.

So that give you a $900 animal

that $1700 pair your going to buy to replace her will cost about $250 to feed over the summer and next winter.

that makes her $1950 if her calf turns out well or and doesn't have ear or poor potentional or w/e the case you can probably assume $600 that brings her back to $1350

so your still $450 ahead keeping her

That's the math I came up with. Replacements so dang expensive it pays to follow up on a missed calving. One more point, don't forget to look at your bull before you get rid of cows.

 

[dun]

One more point, don't forget to look at your bull before you get rid of cows.

Look at your mineral program also. We changed minerals this year to one of the big name brands and had problems, went back to the stuff we've alwasy used and a couple of cows came up open. May be coincidence, but I read the tag on the stuff we had used in the past and they've changed the formulation even though it's supposedly the same stuff. Lowered the CTC but completely removed the iodine. Makes me wonder if some of the footrot problems stemmed from that.

dun

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

I'm not going to argue with you on that point, providing it's a young cow. An older cow that has delivered every year previously requires a little more thought.

I suppose, but history has taught me that lightning does strike twice when it comes to open cows. I keep my bulls in with the cows year round, except when they start to calve. Then I pull the bulls until June when its time to rebreed. So there is absolutely no reason to have an open cow. She's had 8 months to get bred If she's simply late, then I still say there is an issue with the animal, and while you may bring her back into synch with the rest of the herd, there is an (arguably) good chance she won't come back into synch.

Jake, your numbers only pencil out IF you can get the animal to drop another calf the following year. I'm saying that if your nutrition is right and the bulls are good, there is a > 90% chance that you won't get a calf the following year either. At least thats my history. So now instead of being $-250, you've poured another $250 worth of feed into that cow and are now down $500. And you still don't have a replacement.

The other thing that makes it different for me is that your numbers don't match my area at all. I'm going to use the pre-BSE prices as a comparison:

Open cow kept for one year - $250 feed - You finish the year at $-250, plus you have an animal that I say is likely not going to get bred again period.

Sell the cow and buy a good bred replacement heifer - A 1200lb cow, pre-BSE, would bring $700. I can buy good baldy bred heifers from one of the guys that I deal with for $1200. Add $250 worth of feed. Heifer is likely going to give me a 7 weight calf to sell, so that brings me $900. I'm finishing up $150 to the good, I've got a young heifer from a breeder whose stock I've been buying for years and my chances of having another calf next year are improved.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

That's the math I came up with. Replacements so dang expensive it pays to follow up on a missed calving. One more point, don't forget to look at your bull before you get rid of cows.

If you've only got one or two open cows, there isn't a bull problem at all. If half the herd comes up open, then there is an issue with the bull.

Rod

 

[Dap]

I used to give open cows a second chance, but not anymore. I've noticed that the cows that are late breeders and open are usually the same ones that come up open again within a couple of years. And when I really started looking at things I saw that a lot of the time daughters that I saved from those cows weren't the best breeders either. Culling hard pays off in the long run.

 

[Beefy]

it all depends on the age of the cow for me. first calf heifers WHO RAISE EXCELLENT CALVES get another chance if they come up open after the first calf. A second calfer whos raised two excellent calves on time gets another chance. these young cows usually never skip a beat after that. Mismanagement? maybe, but they might as well get used to working for a living from the get-go, i think. Anything older, in my experience, that comes up open will give you problems again down the road, whether it be late breeder or what have you. if i had a purebred program i'd probably be a little stricter about it.

 

[dun]

it all depends on the age of the cow for me. first calf heifers WHO RAISE EXCELLENT CALVES get another chance if they come up open after the first calf. A second calfer whos raised two excellent calves on time gets another chance. these young cows usually never skip a beat after that. Mismanagement? maybe, but they might as well get used to working for a living from the get-go, i think. Anything older, in my experience, that comes up open will give you problems again down the road, whether it be late breeder or what have you. if i had a purebred program i'd probably be a little stricter about it.

Gotta agree it depends on the cow. Ol Granny came up open one year when she was 9 or 10, she had alwasy settled first service before that and has done the same ever since. She also raises a great calf and so does her daughter that's just as fertile as she is.
Besides I can;t afford another divorce if I tried to ship her.

dun

 

[rgv]

Question - Alot of the experts preach 60-90 day calving season (Pulling the bull after 60-90 days of service). I have taken the position of leaving the bull in for breeding all summer and into the winter. The bull is pulled one month before calving season and kept up until June 1st.
The cows are tracked on calving dates and the poor performers are culled by thier performance. Cows that are always late are culled - cows that come up open the next year are culled for sure.
I realize you burn some feed costs - but year in & out I think that you will be dollars ahead even by getting a late calve even if you cull that cow for not keeping up with the herd.
Whata think?

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

The only reason that I see for pulling the bull is that they'll keep a little easier if they aren't running with the ladies. I keep my bull in for about the same amount of time as you mention, pulling only before calving starts.

My lates and opens are culled immediately, and sent out for meat. I used to keep my lates, take the calf and then sell the cow for meat, but it was too much work for my tastes. Middle of haying season is not when I want to be out checking for calves. And I won't sell my culls (either late or open) as breeding stock. If they aren't good enough for my herd, I don't think I should sell to anyone either.

Rod

 

[Victoria]

Our general rule is cull if open. They really have no excuse to be open. We have enough bulls for them and they are good bulls so there's no excuses. We really don't have a problem with a lot of open cows. Last year there were none, this year there was one that we had bought the year before so we know if a cow is open it is her not the program or the bulls. Having said that there are always exceptions. We have one cow that raised 4 calves for us and is our leader. She always gets pregnant first heat but if she didn't she'd still be here.
We cull for a loss of calf that was the cows fault as well and that of course includes them not letting us help if we need to.
Maybe there is a reason your dad wants to keep these two. If you have new bulls, changed your feeding program, the cows have a reason for being late or your dad has his own reasons for keeping these two they should maybe stick around.

 

[bigbull338]

as i sit here reading this i havent seen any mention of the cows age.if its 1st calf heifers that are open.they couldve raised a big calf.an may not breed back in 90 days.or she may have a problem.i use a year round calving myself.but am getting into reg cattle.so will use 90 day breeding season.an a spring an fall calving herds.

 

[hillbilly]

Vet pregchecked our 21 angus
3 were open
we sell all calves each year
Dad wants to keep these 3 open cows in case they are late or may get pregnant next year. We didn't pull the bull this fall from the herd (didnt have a field for him). I think keeping them is a mistake for $ reasons and I don't want fall calves. Any opinions on this as I need to talk him into selling them and replacing them with pregnant cows. Would be buying from the same guy we got our herd from. I'm new at this, but I don't see how they can make any $, and may make problems and extra work for me. I need to keep this profitable for my Dad.

Thank you!

Your post says that you don't want fall calves.

Your post says you did not pull the bull.

Your post says 3 open cows....

Sell them.
They should be bred even if behind the rest of the herd
If still open in December you have a long wait on your next calf
from these cows. If they have another.
If you have not sold this years calves, save back a couple
of heffers.

hillbilly

 

[go-pokes-osu]

Keep them a couple more months and preg check them then. That way they'll either be bred like you want or you can sell them when the cull market is hopefully on the upswing. I wouldn't routinely keep open cows because you'll just eventually propagate an infertility problem in your herd through their offspring. Also if you're not sure if they checked correctly, there is a blood test you can send in for just a few dollars a head that's 95% accurate after 30 days of pregnancy. http://www.biotracking.com is their address.