keep open cows?

[kansasbeef]

Vet pregchecked our 21 angus
3 were open
we sell all calves each year
Dad wants to keep these 3 open cows in case they are late or may get pregnant next year. We didn't pull the bull this fall from the herd (didnt have a field for him). I think keeping them is a mistake for $ reasons and I don't want fall calves. Any opinions on this as I need to talk him into selling them and replacing them with pregnant cows. Would be buying from the same guy we got our herd from. I'm new at this, but I don't see how they can make any $, and may make problems and extra work for me. I need to keep this profitable for my Dad.

Thank you!

 

[whatabull]

Vet pregchecked our 21 angus
3 were open
we sell all calves each year
Dad wants to keep these 3 open cows in case they are late or may get pregnant next year. We didn't pull the bull this fall from the herd (didnt have a field for him). I think keeping them is a mistake for $ reasons and I don't want fall calves. Any opinions on this as I need to talk him into selling them and replacing them with pregnant cows. Would be buying from the same guy we got our herd from. I'm new at this, but I don't see how they can make any $, and may make problems and extra work for me. I need to keep this profitable for my Dad.

Thank you!

It is your call. But I would give them one more try, and next year if the same 3 are open then cull them.

 

[Jake]

Vet pregchecked our 21 angus
3 were open
we sell all calves each year
Dad wants to keep these 3 open cows in case they are late or may get pregnant next year. We didn't pull the bull this fall from the herd (didnt have a field for him). I think keeping them is a mistake for $ reasons and I don't want fall calves. Any opinions on this as I need to talk him into selling them and replacing them with pregnant cows. Would be buying from the same guy we got our herd from. I'm new at this, but I don't see how they can make any $, and may make problems and extra work for me. I need to keep this profitable for my Dad.

Thank you!

selling all three of them MIGHT get you enough to buy one cow. Keep them and breed them and sell them afterwards if your dead set on selling them and not having fall calves. The dollars are towards keeping open cows right now instead of selling them.

 

[MikeC]

Vet pregchecked our 21 angus
3 were open
we sell all calves each year
Dad wants to keep these 3 open cows in case they are late or may get pregnant next year. We didn't pull the bull this fall from the herd (didnt have a field for him). I think keeping them is a mistake for $ reasons and I don't want fall calves. Any opinions on this as I need to talk him into selling them and replacing them with pregnant cows. Would be buying from the same guy we got our herd from. I'm new at this, but I don't see how they can make any $, and may make problems and extra work for me. I need to keep this profitable for my Dad.

Thank you!

Depends on how much hay you've got on hand, how much it costs to feed them through the winter and whether you will have plenty of "Free" grass next summer.

If you are pushed for resources I'd say sell them.

If they're not in the way and not costing much, keep them.

 

[la4angus]

I need to keep this profitable for my Dad.

Keep this profitable for your dad or less work for you?

 

[D.R. Cattle]

Depends on what it costs you to keep them. If they're calving the first or second time we give em a chance to get going. Thats only because we have plenty of pasture and it isn't costing us much to keep them. AND, we breed terminals, so we don't hold back heifers to replace them. The only heifers we keep are from bred stock we bought. We have to pay big bucks these days to replace culls. We seem to have more trouble getting them rebred after the first calf than we do getting them bred as heifers. But we have rigid seasons and we don't make exceptions. They need to be in the annual rythym by the time they're three year olds. If they can't do it by then there's definitely a problem that needs to be dealt with.

 

[msscamp]

Vet pregchecked our 21 angus
3 were open

For what it's worth, we had the same situation summer before last. During preg checking, the vet stated that 10, maybe 15 cows were open. Every one of them calved on time the following spring. I'm not going to suggest keeping or selling as I don't know your operation, but you may want to keep in mind that no one is infallible 100% of the time. Not even a vet. Just my thoughts.

 

[dph]

Kansas: The way I look at this, and it is by no means the only way, is if I have x number of cows, I am going to have x number of head sold the next year. If she has a calf, there's the head, if the calf is born dead, or she comes open, its her head. I don't let the calf she is currently raising pay for the feed she is currently eating. I expect that to be paid by her next calf.

If you keep a heifer calf, what's paying the bill for her that first year? Her future calf. If all of the sudden, when she is a cow, you let this year's calf pay for this year's feed, you've lost a year. Follow me? Sure, you can consider over the life of the animal you've gained one year, but you didn't keep her just to break even. Hope that makes sense.

I don't think you should give these cows a free meal. If they didn't breed this time, when all the others did, they might not breed given any length of time. Additionally, if they do breed for fall calving, I would think it would be likely that at some point they will come open in that herd.

There are guys though, if they have the feed, that will try again to breed that open cow in the fall, after preg checking, then turn around immediately and sell her as a bred fall cow. If you gave her two cycles to breed, and gave the vet 60 days before you preg checked, you are looking at just over 3 months. You've had the bull in all the while, so you could run them through the chute again in 45 days or so and re-check. If just one of the three was bred, it might not figure out too bad. But I don't think I would retain any of the 3 in the herd regardless.

Good Luck

 

[kaneranch]

I would keep them one more year. If you take them to a sale barn they are going to suspect that they are not able to be bred, and you will pay dearly.

Options:
* Keep and breed next year.
* Keep breed and sell as pair or bred cow.
* Sell them now.

Thanks Kaneranch

 

[msscamp]

Kansas: The way I look at this, and it is by no means the only way, is if I have x number of cows, I am going to have x number of head sold the next year. If she has a calf, there's the head, if the calf is born dead, or she comes open, its her head. I don't let the calf she is currently raising pay for the feed she is currently eating. I expect that to be paid by her next calf.

If you keep a heifer calf, what's paying the bill for her that first year? Her future calf. If all of the sudden, when she is a cow, you let this year's calf pay for this year's feed, you've lost a year. Follow me? Sure, you can consider over the life of the animal you've gained one year, but you didn't keep her just to break even. Hope that makes sense.

I don't think you should give these cows a free meal. If they didn't breed this time, when all the others did, they might not breed given any length of time. Additionally, if they do breed for fall calving, I would think it would be likely that at some point they will come open in that herd.

There are guys though, if they have the feed, that will try again to breed that open cow in the fall, after preg checking, then turn around immediately and sell her as a bred fall cow. If you gave her two cycles to breed, and gave the vet 60 days before you preg checked, you are looking at just over 3 months. You've had the bull in all the while, so you could run them through the chute again in 45 days or so and re-check. If just one of the three was bred, it might not figure out too bad. But I don't think I would retain any of the 3 in the herd regardless.

Good Luck

Sounds to me like you are culling cows without necessarily having a viable reason to do so. What if that calf was born dead due to lack of nutrition or health care or some other variable that the cow had no control over? All that cow can do is what she allowed to do through the care of her owner and the benevalence (sp?) of nature. There are far too many variables in this business to have such a cut and dried culling program and each case needs to be taken on its own circumstances. Just my thoughts.

 

[dph]

I have to get going, but wanted to reply to your post. Can't argue with you msscamp. Just how we do things. The spots in the pasture are usually pretty filled up, and that type of program helps us make space. The cow could very well be losing the calf without it being her fault. But we don't short them nutrition or mineral. If there is a health related issue that isn't showing external symptoms, we could have very well missed that also, but I don't know if it makes up for the fact that there won't be a calf next year paying her way.

If we were purebred breeders, and she was selling some pretty good bull calves, we might keep her, but we are just commercial cattle guys. As we start to add to our records we may make exceptions some day for top ratioing cattle over a number of years that lose their calves, hoping to get another daughter or two out of them that may be equally productive, but we won't make exceptions for ones that come open. Just us personally. Like I said earlier there are other ways. Maybe one of those will one day change the way we do things.

One thing that isn't variable though, the need for each cow to be viable in your operation. If you decide to keep her, it has to be because it is more profitable for you to do so. Right now, with cull cows selling like they are, it is hard to make the case that they may be more profitable later, especially if cattle prices have or are about to peak.

 

[msscamp]

dph, I understand what you are saying, and I was not suggesting that you don't feed properly, that was just a example. I wish you the best of luck with your cows, this business is a hard one as you already know!

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

My 2 cents: I think along the same lines as DPH. If a cow is preg checked and declared open, I'll still keep her around until calving time (just in case the vet messed up). If she doesn't drop a calf with the rest, then she's gone. I used to give animals 2 strikes and then they were outta here, and everytime I did it I ended up with issues somewhere down the road, so now they get one strike and they're gone. I use this rule for open cows or calves that are delivered dead. I'll still use the 2 strikes for malpresentations or large calves that need to be pulled.

Rod

 

[msscamp]

My 2 cents: I think along the same lines as DPH. If a cow is preg checked and declared open, I'll still keep her around until calving time (just in case the vet messed up). If she doesn't drop a calf with the rest, then she's gone. I used to give animals 2 strikes and then they were outta here, and everytime I did it I ended up with issues somewhere down the road, so now they get one strike and they're gone. I use this rule for open cows or calves that are delivered dead. I'll still use the 2 strikes for malpresentations or large calves that need to be pulled.

Rod

Rod, you're situtation cannot be compared to dph or to mine. You're coming out of the effects of the BSE problem and the border being closed. You have to do things harder than we do to survive as your market is not what ours is. From what I understand prices are improving, but Canadian ranchers are not having an easy time of it and I realize this. Different situations call for different measures. Just my thoughts.

 

[jcarkie]

i am pretty tough if they don't breed back they grow wheels.
60 day spring breeding season and 60 day fall breeding season. i made one exception it was a first calf heifer, i sprayed her for flys and she got sick. i felt like it was my fault and she has been right on track ever since. my grandpa and my father-in-law think it is o.k. but most of the time it does not pay off. i have let heifers go from spring to fall and most will still be open.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Rod, you're situtation cannot be compared to dph or to mine. You're coming out of the effects of the BSE problem and the border being closed.

Actually, during the border closure, my culling program pretty much stopped. Older open cows were worth 4 cents per pound. Even young stuff was only selling for 20 cents. So I kept the open and problem stuff here until prices come back up. Even if I got 1 calf in 2 years, they still paid for themselves as my hay/grain is cheap. Plus I refused to deliver an animal to a packer for 4 cents/lb, watch that same packer sell it for hamburger at $1.50/lb, and see it turn up in Safeway as lean ground beef for $3/lb. Call me stubborn :lol:

I cull hard when prices are good. My reasoning, and it may not be sound :

1) If you're only seeing a small percentage of cows open or very late, then chances are good its not a nutrition or bull based problem. Its almost certainly the cow.

2) It may only be a one time problem, but I only have a certain amount of land base in which to be productive. I only want the absolute best animals running on that land.

3) There are too many good cows in the world to keep a problem one around whose not earning her keep.

4) With my purebreds, fertility is especially important. If they don't catch, I'm not going to chance perpetuating a genetic flaw. Maybe they only miss once, and then never miss again, but genetics are still very much a guessing game, so I'm not going to take the chance that I'm leaving a regressive gene behind that I (or a buyer) may throw back to.

Without meaning to hijack the thread, I also cull the cows of the bottom 10% of calves, based on feedlot performance. It takes more than once showing up in the bottom side to earn a cow an X for performance but they don't get too many chances.

When my purebred operation gets moving better, I'll be culling even harder, especially on the performance end.

Rod

 

[Bama]

3) There are too many good cows in the world to keep a problem one around whose not earning her keep.


Rod

That one statement says enough

 

[msscamp]

3) There are too many good cows in the world to keep a problem one around whose not earning her keep.


Rod

That one statement says enough

Yes, it does. I'm not going to argue with that statement. I think I need to re-think a few things. Thank you, gentlemen!

 

[Jake]

3) There are too many good cows in the world to keep a problem one around whose not earning her keep.


Rod

That one statement says enough

Yes, it does. I'm not going to argue with that statement. I think I need to re-think a few things. Thank you, gentlemen!

If your looking at profitability here keeping open cows makes more sense than buying bred replacements or pairs for between $1400 and 1700.

a 1200# cow is roughly going to bring $600

feed for this winter, summer, then next winter will be somewhere around $300 roughly.

So that give you a $900 animal

that $1700 pair your going to buy to replace her will cost about $250 to feed over the summer and next winter.

that makes her $1950 if her calf turns out well or and doesn't have ear or poor potentional or w/e the case you can probably assume $600 that brings her back to $1350

so your still $450 ahead keeping her

 

[Bama]

To me a cow is nothing more than a babymaker. IF she ain't doing that she ain't doing her job. Its hard enough to make anything off of a calf that you have invested a years worth of upkeep on its mother. Add two years to that equation and payback on a cow takes a long time. I like to cut my losses early before they mount up. Replacing her with one that is more profitable. My way of thinking on a cow is she puts grass in one end and a calf per year out the other end.