Is there a market for good but non registered Hereford bulls

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SRBeef

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Is there a market for good but non registered Hereford bulls for commercial use? Especially in July or August after I am done with him? Sure would hate to sell a good quality smaller frame size but heavy yearling bull for hamburger. This is one I retained out of my T21 bull and my favorite but non-registered cow. My plan is to use him for only one season on my own commercials.

Jim
 
Yes. But be prepared to sell cheap and you being that he is not a virgin bull, it may be a real tough sell. The neighbour does this (selling virgin unpapered purebred yearlings) from time to time after quitting the registered Hereford biz and gives up at least half of the value of what his registered bulls used to be worth, but I think some people look for reasons to discount a good bull. People can say what they like about registered, but when it comes down to dollars, grade/purebred without papers is equal to commercial. I have bought some good purebred heifers (for my commercial herd) out of his replacement pen for 2/3 to 3/4 of what they would have as registered.
 
Aaron":191rf9du said:
Yes. But be prepared to sell cheap and you being that he is not a virgin bull, it may be a real tough sell. The neighbour does this (selling virgin unpapered purebred yearlings) from time to time after quitting the registered Hereford biz and gives up at least half of the value of what his registered bulls used to be worth, but I think some people look for reasons to discount a good bull. People can say what they like about registered, but when it comes down to dollars, grade/purebred without papers is equal to commercial. I have bought some good purebred heifers (for my commercial herd) out of his replacement pen for 2/3 to 3/4 of what they would have as registered.

As long as he would bring more as a bull to a commercial buyer than for hamburger I would be happy. Mostly want to see him used. I am not in the bull selling business nor do I want to be. Just trying to plan out my breeding for summer and don't want to carry a bull over the winter that I am done with. If I had more land I might keep him for use on a few next year. But my plan is to keep my one registered bull (Huth U070) and also one new retained bull each year if I have a suitable one out of my target cows or their heifer daughters. A bit of accelerated herd improvement, hopefully.

As far as him not being a virgin, the significance of that is no trich right? I don't have trich and that should not be a consideration. Thanks for your reply.

Jim
 
SRBeef":9ky855v2 said:
Aaron":9ky855v2 said:
Yes. But be prepared to sell cheap and you being that he is not a virgin bull, it may be a real tough sell. The neighbour does this (selling virgin unpapered purebred yearlings) from time to time after quitting the registered Hereford biz and gives up at least half of the value of what his registered bulls used to be worth, but I think some people look for reasons to discount a good bull. People can say what they like about registered, but when it comes down to dollars, grade/purebred without papers is equal to commercial. I have bought some good purebred heifers (for my commercial herd) out of his replacement pen for 2/3 to 3/4 of what they would have as registered.

As long as he would bring more as a bull to a commercial buyer than for hamburger I would be happy. Mostly want to see him used. I am not in the bull selling business nor do I want to be. Just trying to plan out my breeding for summer and don't want to carry a bull over the winter that I am done with. If I had more land I might keep him for use on a few next year. But my plan is to keep my one registered bull (Huth U070) and also one new retained bull each year if I have a suitable one out of my target cows or their heifer daughters. A bit of accelerated herd improvement, hopefully.

As far as him not being a virgin, the significance of that is no trich right? I don't have trich and that should not be a consideration. Thanks for your reply.

Jim

That's generally what's thought. But so many people see it as a big no-no that I have heard all kinds of weird things come out of ignorant mouths. Everything from sterilizing the cows to mutant calves. It's so bad that I almost burst out laughing when I hear them speak. Hopefully you have more 'informed' producers your way. You also might do quite well seeing as how registered bulls are pricey nowadays and someone might be shopping for a good deal on a breeder. :cowboy:
 
I would sure Advertise him. I bet someone will want him for use on their black cows.

Just dont go visit him you may be surprised how he looks in a different farm.
 
Is there a market for good but non registered Hereford bulls for commercial use? Especially in July or August after I am done with him? Sure would hate to sell a good quality smaller frame size but heavy yearling bull for hamburger. This is one I retained out of my T21 bull and my favorite but non-registered cow.

This is a good example of where the Composite Beef Cattle Registry will work. This bull is sired by a Registered bull but out of a non-registered cow. I don't know if the parentage is known on the cow or not, but this bull could still be registered with us.

Some producers would like to see EPD's on the bulls they use, but with just registering only one animal we would not be able to calculate an EPD for him. It takes a minimum of 5 calves born within a 90 day windows for the contemporaries to do an accurate evaluation. Other information that is needed is birth weights and weaning weights.
 
SRBeef":3d7fddx5 said:
Aaron":3d7fddx5 said:
Yes. But be prepared to sell cheap and you being that he is not a virgin bull, it may be a real tough sell. The neighbour does this (selling virgin unpapered purebred yearlings) from time to time after quitting the registered Hereford biz and gives up at least half of the value of what his registered bulls used to be worth, but I think some people look for reasons to discount a good bull. People can say what they like about registered, but when it comes down to dollars, grade/purebred without papers is equal to commercial. I have bought some good purebred heifers (for my commercial herd) out of his replacement pen for 2/3 to 3/4 of what they would have as registered.

As long as he would bring more as a bull to a commercial buyer than for hamburger I would be happy. Mostly want to see him used. I am not in the bull selling business nor do I want to be. Just trying to plan out my breeding for summer and don't want to carry a bull over the winter that I am done with. If I had more land I might keep him for use on a few next year. But my plan is to keep my one registered bull (Huth U070) and also one new retained bull each year if I have a suitable one out of my target cows or their heifer daughters. A bit of accelerated herd improvement, hopefully.

As far as him not being a virgin, the significance of that is no trich right? I don't have trich and that should not be a consideration. Thanks for your reply.

Jim
heavy bulls are bringing top dollar for slaughter now,,, i got $75.00 more than i payed for my bull and he was 7 years old when i bought him
 
For me there is an ethical issue, if you want the extra money selling bulls can generate then you have to pay your dues, become a registered breeder and sell registered stock. In the case of other breeds where breeding up is allowed its not so much an ethics issue, but in herefords its only a hereford if you can trace it back on both lines to herdbook volume 13 of 1936, otherwise its a hereford type if your an honest seller (and good luck trying to sell a bull as a hereford type)
 
Jim, I agree with Aaron. While what you propose is certainly possible and there is nothing wrong with the bull, IMO selling a non-virgin, non-registered bull for more than weighup price isn't likely.

I've got my own home grown bull I have used for a couple years. His mama is one of my best black baldy cows. She is a very structurally sound cow with a great udder and brings in a good calf every year. She had this bull calf about 6 weeks earlier than my planned calving start date.

It was kind of on a whim that I left him as a bull. He has deep red very correct Hereford markings with above average pigment around his eyes. Scur horns. His dam is a brockel faced polled baldy with small black teats and a very correct udder.

I've never had him working on his own so I can't say positive what calves are out of him for sure. I'm sure he weighs over a ton now so I'll probably weigh him up after this breeding season and am contemplating replacing him with a purchased 2-yr old this fall.
 
cbcr":1tvljo8q said:
Is there a market for good but non registered Hereford bulls for commercial use? Especially in July or August after I am done with him? Sure would hate to sell a good quality smaller frame size but heavy yearling bull for hamburger. This is one I retained out of my T21 bull and my favorite but non-registered cow.

This is a good example of where the Composite Beef Cattle Registry will work. This bull is sired by a Registered bull but out of a non-registered cow. I don't know if the parentage is known on the cow or not, but this bull could still be registered with us.

Some producers would like to see EPD's on the bulls they use, but with just registering only one animal we would not be able to calculate an EPD for him. It takes a minimum of 5 calves born within a 90 day windows for the contemporaries to do an accurate evaluation. Other information that is needed is birth weights and weaning weights.

:lol2: :lol2: ive been waiting for this to come up. i was even going to say hey why dont you pm cbcr and get him reg. so he is worth alot more. :clap: :clap: :clap:
 
jim dont be afraid to ask what you think he is worth and then if he does not bring it you always have other options i agree on a comercial cross bred herd papers are not worth much and here in central indiana he would also be a nice clean up bull from an ai program but i think the hereford breed is on it's way back so dont give him away either i bought a red poll this year but looked long and hard at hereford and gelbveih both i like all three breed David
 
Just a thought after you. Get him tested for trich before you advertise him. then if someone asks you have the report. Also a semen test on hand too.

hubby used to buy non registered bulls from his cousin for around $1200-$1500.
 
SRBeef":3lo2b1au said:
My plan is to use him for only one season on my own commercials.

Jim

There's yet another issue. I like seeing what kind of calves a bull throws when buying something in this situation.

You're selling him based on something you don't actually have.

Everybody selling bulls is going to tell you what a great prospect that bull is. What prospect is that? Seen many that were excellent for terminal bulls but that only. etc.
 
It seems that producers appear to fall into two categories.

Those that keep records and those that don't. Just read the other day that only 26% of producers keep some form of records. From notes on a calendar, in a spiral notebook or even in the little red book.

We have commercial producers in our area that do an excellent job of manageing their herds, they may run multiple bulls with the cows, but when they keep replacements they are getting them DNA tested for parentage to know which sire they were out of along with other DNA tests. They work with their vet and keep excellent records of vaccinations and procedures. When they take their cattle to the sale they take along documentation about what has been done to them. Their cattle always bring a top price.

Other producers may be running 50 - 200 cows, have off farm jobs and use the farm as a tax write off and don't seem really concerned that there are things that they can do to make their calves worth more when they sell them. They tag the cows and calves but keep no records of any kind. They only use the tags to pair up the cows and calves. Some vaccinate and do everything that needs to be done, but their cattle don't sell near the top of the market, and wonder why. Buyers today want the information on the cattle, and will pay a premium for it.

Have found other smalll producers who have hand written records going back 20 years and even longer, and know the genetics and parentage of every animal in their herd.

There are several variations of beef producers and management styles. Some could care less about papers while other keep very detailed records.

Just as SRBeef wrote, he has a bull out of his favorite non-registered cow and sired by a Registered bull. What would be wrong, if he chose to do so, for him to register the bull? Simmental, Gelbvieh, Limousin, Charolais and many of the other Continental breeds offer a grading up program. Angus and Hereford herdbooks are closed. There are even some very progressive producers that are flushing commercial cows.

I spoke to a breeder that said if he had an alternative for EPD's he wouldn't register his bulls, they go to commercial producers and they see the registration papers as toilet paper out in the pasture.

Was at a sale the other day that a bull sold out of a Commercial Simmental cow that was 7/8 simmental and sired by a Reg. Simmental bull. That bull was listed as only being 1/2 simmental, the cows breed didn't count. Spoke to another breeder that has a Purebred Maine Anjou cow and was thinking of breeding her to a bull registered with the Chianina Assoc. that is 1/2 Maine Anjou. The resulting calf, would only be registered as 1/2 Maine Anjou because the sire isn't registered with the Maine Anjou Assoc., which if he was, the calf would be considered 75% Maine Anjou.

The inaccuracies of the breed and genetic makeup by some of the breed associations ultimately affects the EPD calculations for these animals as well.

We are finding that many producers look at the EPD's but really do not understand them. EPD's have been around for many years, are a useful selection tool, but misused as much as they are misunderstood. What EPD's are really important? But that is for another post.

The bottom line, any animal with registration papers and known pedigree should be worth more.
 
Jim
I think you would be hard pressed in finding someone to give as much money for that bull as a breeding animal as he would bring as a baloney bull
if he is weighing 1500lb or more and fat he will bring $1-$1.05 pr lb for baloney
and most guys wanting a cheap bull still want to buy one for $1200 or less
 
Angus Cowman":okqi1rsl said:
Jim
I think you would be hard pressed in finding someone to give as much money for that bull as a breeding animal as he would bring as a baloney bull
if he is weighing 1500lb or more and fat he will bring $1-$1.05 pr lb for baloney
and most guys wanting a cheap bull still want to buy one for $1200 or less

That sounds like the consensus. Selling him for slaughter would also be a lot easier. I'll wait and see how things go this summer then decide. Perhaps I'll keep him for a second year.

I would imagine it is the pits to sell him for baloney and then find next spring his calves come out like they can walk on water...

The reason I am using him to breed some non-related commercial cows is to get the genetics of his dam spread around my herd a bit more. The bull himself typifies what I am looking for: calving ease but rapid, solid (not fat) growth on forage mostly, finished on corn (although he has not been on corn).

Knersie, by the way I have paid my dues and am a member of the AHA. I intend to register a few registerable calves this year. My plan is to develop a small registered group more out of curiosity than anything else. I am not interested in getting into the bull business. I like eating and selling freezer beef. Mostly just learning and trying to bring in outside genetics to develop my commercial freezer beef herd into the most efficient group I can.

I have a very good local market in the Bloomington (WI) Livestock Exchange and in the end at current prices will probably sell this bull for slaughter there after I am done with him.

Thanks all for your comments.

Jim
 
SRBeef":wd9km618 said:
Angus Cowman":wd9km618 said:
Jim
I think you would be hard pressed in finding someone to give as much money for that bull as a breeding animal as he would bring as a baloney bull
if he is weighing 1500lb or more and fat he will bring $1-$1.05 pr lb for baloney
and most guys wanting a cheap bull still want to buy one for $1200 or less

That sounds like the consensus. Selling him for slaughter would also be a lot easier. I'll wait and see how things go this summer then decide. Perhaps I'll keep him for a second year.

I would imagine it is the pits to sell him for baloney and then find next spring his calves come out like they can walk on water...

Jim

Jim,
Sounds like you have confidence in the young bull, especially his dam. If you have the space, might not be a bad idea
to hold on to him and see the results. You very well might want to use him again.
DM
 
mrvictordomino":35ltbnqa said:
SRBeef":35ltbnqa said:
Angus Cowman":35ltbnqa said:
Jim
I think you would be hard pressed in finding someone to give as much money for that bull as a breeding animal as he would bring as a baloney bull
if he is weighing 1500lb or more and fat he will bring $1-$1.05 pr lb for baloney
and most guys wanting a cheap bull still want to buy one for $1200 or less

That sounds like the consensus. Selling him for slaughter would also be a lot easier. I'll wait and see how things go this summer then decide. Perhaps I'll keep him for a second year.

I would imagine it is the pits to sell him for baloney and then find next spring his calves come out like they can walk on water...

Jim

Jim,
Sounds like you have confidence in the young bull, especially his dam. If you have the space, might not be a bad idea
to hold on to him and see the results. You very well might want to use him again.
DM

Yes, I am coming to that conclusion also. By the time I get to summer it really does not take that much more hay to get through to next years calving season and see what I've got for calves. I suspect he may be really something special at least for my goals and needs.

It does help to throw ideas out here for discussion. Thank you all.

Jim
 
If you want more like if mother I wouldn't sell him till I saw what he did. Have you considered flushing her for eggs? As far as selling him for a bull remember there are still lots of people who buy their bulls at the sale barn. He would be a big upgrade for them.
 

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