Inducing Labor w/Embryo Calves

[slick4591]

I'm buying some embryos and plan on implanting them in January/February. Had a lengthy discussion with the breeder last night and he tells me that if the cow is not in labor the day after the calf is due he induces. Says that he has lots fewer problems with high BW's than if he allows them to go longer. It makes sense to me, but wanted some opinions from you folks.

On another note he says when AI'ing a flush cow he puts several straws in both ovaries. Says he averages 16 or more embryos doing it this way. Since I don't know anything about this that's another question I have as I didn't know this was even possible.

 

[branguscowgirl]

Slick we just flushed one of my cows. My understanding, (from the Embryologists explanation) is the semen is deposited just past the end of the cervix. He only uses one straw per breeding, but breeds them every 12 hrs. while they are in heat. We ended up breeding my cow 4 times.

With super ovulation the eggs may not mature all at the same time. The number of maturing eggs that the cow produces and are fertilized, is what determines the number of embryos you will get. (Not how many straws of semen that you use all at once.) There is a fine line with the dose of FSH given for 4 days prior. Too much, and you will have lots of eggs that are not of good quality. Too little FSH, and you will not produce enough eggs.
Embryos are "graded" under a microscope by an Embryologist prior to freezing. Be sure that you get grade 1 embryos if you are paying top dollar for them. My Embryologist will implant down to grade 3 embryos, but will put in 2 of them.

The first time my cow was flushed, (by a different vet) she was given too high of a dose of FSH and produced something like 40 eggs. Resulting in poor quality embryos and no keepers, (Brangus are very sensitive.) This time we greatly reduced her dose and only got 2 embryos, but they are of excellent quality.

As for "inducing labor". I have never heard of anyone doing that. I plan on matching the recip to the expected calf, to hopefully avoid calving issues. I also flushed using a LBW bull so that I was not limited as much when choosing recips.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

I have induced, and would never do it unless it is absolutely unavoidable. There is a high rate of retained placentas, along with uterine infections that follow that line. The cows are later to return to heat... just a bunch of issues. If you are inducing because you are afraid of size, you are using the wrong recips or buying the wrong embryos. Just my experience and opinion, which means nothing!
As far as getting more embryos because he horn breeds (or I am assuming that is what he is talking about), if there is NO egg, there is no embryo to follow. When you start getting UFO's (un-fertilized eggs, or organisms) is when you start to question the breeding. I have never heard of putting semen in the ovaries, but some get it up in the uterine horns. Still not sure that works, since some of the eggs travel down to the uterus. I follow what Brangus Cowgirl does.

 

[Koffi Babone]

Every time I have induced cows, I use a dose of prostagladin (estrumate or lutalyse) and 20 mg of dexamethasone. 80% will calve within 24 hrs. I don't recall ever seeing uterine infections and I don't know if the patient takes longer before coming into heat (it is not an issue, because most owners will start a breeding program at around 60 days).

If you are sure there is a calf in the cow and she does not give birth within maximum 48 hrs, you really need to stick your arm inside and make sure everything is OK or call the vet if you don't know what to do. Everytime induction has gone beyond 48 hrs, it has turned into a nightmare (it usually means there is a uterine torsion and the calf is dead).

 

[slick4591]

Thanks for the thoughts.

The ovary thing through me too, so he probably meant the horns. Not having any idea I thought I'd throw it out there.

One thing about my breed is they do tend to throw some heavier birth weights and I'm finding you have to stay on top of things to manage them correctly. His idea was the calf had already grown 7 days prior to transfer so every day over the due date meant the calf was getting larger, maybe to large. I didn't know about the other problems associated with inducing.

KB, Just had one that went 6 days over and the bull calf was born dead. I checked on it after a couple of days past the due date and (not really knowing what I was feeling for) I was able to feel the head enough to know it upright and I was guessing it was a good presentation. I think it stayed in the birth canal to long and died there.

 

[branguscowgirl]

Slick, get you some good ole Brangus cows as recips and you should do alright. And I don't mean the "modern" finer boned, wispy looking Brangus. I am talking the "old style" Brangus like my girls. They'll have those calves for you. I have never pulled a 90-100 ld calf yet out of one of them.
BTW I am "knocking on wood" as I type, as not to jinx myself!! :lol:

On the calf that you lost, if it "died in the birth canal" did you see any signs of her being in labor prior?

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

Slick
Just to clarify, when the embryo goes into a recip, that recip is also 7 days into her cycle, so the embryo is 7 days conceived like it would be if the recip had produced it herself. That calf (embyo) is not 7 days further along, because we figure the due date of the recip from the day she was in standing heat NOT the day the embryo was implanted. Maybe that is where you are getting larger calves? Not quiet sure what you were saying, so trying to clarify.
Sorry to hear about your lost calf. With these bigger calves, would you be better off with a c-section on the cow? Just pondering ideas.

 

[Nesikep]

To me that guy sounds like he's trying to skew numbers on the BW's of his bull calves..

also, theoretically speaking, if you put embryos into a heifer you'll always get lighter birthweights than from the same cow when she's mature.. and there you go, you have a bull calf at 65 lbs, all his brothers were 65 lbs, and you can hype him up as a heifer bull.. You put that same embryo into a cow of mine I had (Tizia) and she will hold it a couple days past due and it'll be 140 lbs.. .sure doesn't look good on the bull's stat sheet does it?

 

[branguscowgirl]

I agree with Nesi, he has a good point. The recip is going to be nourishing the fetus and have a significant influence on the calfs BW. The recips should be chosen carefully.

 

[Koffi Babone]

@ slick4591:

Sorry to hear about your loss, the only people who do not loose animals are those who do not have any....

There is a thread on how long do you wait before assisting, some of the info may be useful.

 

[bse]

I think these replies are spot on, but i do have a couple of questions.
Slick what breed of cattle for these big calves?
Branguscowgirl, the embryologist i use will only do #2s if there but in fresh, no #3s. My question would be if your putting in #3s in pairs are you taking a chance on twins? Have you tracked conception rate on these #3s or ever had twins doing this?

 

[slick4591]

Slick, get you some good ole Brangus cows as recips and you should do alright. And I don't mean the "modern" finer boned, wispy looking Brangus. I am talking the "old style" Brangus like my girls. They'll have those calves for you. I have never pulled a 90-100 ld calf yet out of one of them.
BTW I am "knocking on wood" as I type, as not to jinx myself!! :lol:

On the calf that you lost, if it "died in the birth canal" did you see any signs of her being in labor prior?

I have baldies that are my recips and I'm stuck with them for the time being. Each have already proven themselves and one is now carrying an embryo calf and due in April.

Slick
Just to clarify, when the embryo goes into a recip, that recip is also 7 days into her cycle, so the embryo is 7 days conceived like it would be if the recip had produced it herself. That calf (embyo) is not 7 days further along, because we figure the due date of the recip from the day she was in standing heat NOT the day the embryo was implanted. Maybe that is where you are getting larger calves? Not quiet sure what you were saying, so trying to clarify.
Sorry to hear about your lost calf. With these bigger calves, would you be better off with a c-section on the cow? Just pondering ideas.

Not exactly sure what he was getting at as I was figuring 283 days is still 283 days. I guess the inducing part was meant to get the calf out so it wouldn't grow larger in the cow and produce problems.

To me that guy sounds like he's trying to skew numbers on the BW's of his bull calves..

also, theoretically speaking, if you put embryos into a heifer you'll always get lighter birthweights than from the same cow when she's mature.. and there you go, you have a bull calf at 65 lbs, all his brothers were 65 lbs, and you can hype him up as a heifer bull.. You put that same embryo into a cow of mine I had (Tizia) and she will hold it a couple days past due and it'll be 140 lbs.. .sure doesn't look good on the bull's stat sheet does it?

I'd just about bet you this isn't the case with him, but I get what you are saying. Our breed is still small enough in numbers that pulling shenanigans will bite your ass really quick.

I think these replies are spot on, but i do have a couple of questions.
Slick what breed of cattle for these big calves?
Branguscowgirl, the embryologist i use will only do #2s if there but in fresh, no #3s. My question would be if your putting in #3s in pairs are you taking a chance on twins? Have you tracked conception rate on these #3s or ever had twins doing this?

I raise Piedmontese and have BW's from 85 to 96 lbs so far. This breed still doesn't have reliable EPD's as far as I can tell.

 

[pdfangus]

My neighbor is pretty quick to have the vet induce one.....My observation is it causes him as many problems as it avoids....

mother nature has been doing this stuff a lot longer than any of us control freaks....

 

[Nesikep]

I don't consider 283 days "full term"... my average is 288, with a good number at 292, and I've had a 'normal sized' bull calf born at 302 as well.

In my previous statement, perhaps I sounded a bit accusing, while it may not have been justified.. I was kinda pointing out some 'mechanics' of how a guy could get low birthweights on paper that wouldn't translate into the offspring.

I've had far more problems with calves born pre-term than overdue.

 

[slick4591]

I don't consider 283 days "full term"... my average is 288, with a good number at 292, and I've had a 'normal sized' bull calf born at 302 as well.

In my previous statement, perhaps I sounded a bit accusing, while it may not have been justified.. I was kinda pointing out some 'mechanics' of how a guy could get low birthweights on paper that wouldn't translate into the offspring.

I've had far more problems with calves born pre-term than overdue.

Didn't take the post as accusing, Nesi, but I wanted to point out that manipulating stuff like that in our breed will catch up with you really fast. I get the 283 days from CT's gestation chart, which has always been close. The dead calf was the only one that has gone more than a day or two.

 

[Nesikep]

I've found every herd will be different.. I probably don't consider 283 'early' in my herd, but it's far from the norm.. In another herd it may be the norm, but I would wait til at least 290 before inducing.

For the most part, I've found that cows will have calves the right size for them, there will always be exceptions of course, but that's why I don't get hung up about 'heifer bulls', the heifers will have smaller calves anyhow.

 

[branguscowgirl]

Branguscowgirl, the embryologist i use will only do #2s if there but in fresh, no #3s. My question would be if your putting in #3s in pairs are you taking a chance on twins? Have you tracked conception rate on these #3s or ever had twins doing this?

Bse this is my first experience with this vet, and actually getting some embryos. So I personally do not have any experience with them. I am just going by what he has told me.
He said that there is a slim chance of getting twins, but felt that it was a better option than just throwing them away. Because of the inferiority of the #3s, there is little chance that they will both stick.
I will have to ask him what his conception rate has been on them and let you know.

Nesi I am told to never put embryos in a heifer. The ideal recipient is 3-5 years old and has already proven herself to be an easy breeder, calver and good mother cow.
I have just purchased a Reg Angus momma to use as a recip in the future. She just calved twins unassisted and is raising them both. She is very gentle and easy to work with, which is a plus. I plan on weaning the calves early to give her a rest, and putting an embryo in her next spring. So I got a 3fer deal, with 2 calves to sell!

 

[Hook]

My thoughts only: if you have to induce on a regular basis, one part of the equation isn't working out right. If you are inducing because of bw, you have your answer

 

[inyati13]

I have induced, and would never do it unless it is absolutely unavoidable. There is a high rate of retained placentas, along with uterine infections that follow that line. The cows are later to return to heat... just a bunch of issues. If you are inducing because you are afraid of size, you are using the wrong recips or buying the wrong embryos. Just my experience and opinion, which means nothing!
As far as getting more embryos because he horn breeds (or I am assuming that is what he is talking about), if there is NO egg, there is no embryo to follow. When you start getting UFO's (un-fertilized eggs, or organisms) is when you start to question the breeding. I have never heard of putting semen in the ovaries, but some get it up in the uterine horns. Still not sure that works, since some of the eggs travel down to the uterus. I follow what Brangus Cowgirl does.

If your experience and opinion means nothing, then why post your message. You provide information then make a statement to dismiss it??? Drop that act!. Your experience means a lot. In regard to opinions, if opinions mean nothing, then 90% of what is posted on Cattle Today means nothing.

 

[slick4591]

Reviving this thread because I want to make sure I'm going to do this correctly if I need to induce.

She was implanted w/embryo 3-9-15. Cow is due on 12-10-15???