How big is too big?

[mtnman]

- How many cattle have you ever finished out on feed?

About 7,500 in the last 10 years.


- What makes you the most money in the feedlot, carcass
quality or gainability?

Gain, carcass comes later.

- Are pounds king?

In the feedlot, no. Cost of gain relative to gain is.

On the Ranch, no. Total cost of gain figuring in all costs on a per cow exposed to the bull basis is.

On the rail, no. COG to put that total package on the rail per unit of pound produced is.

It is also trumped by the feedlot COG, and the cowherd productivity relative to COG.


- What does the feeders pay premiums for, short dumpy cattle
or bigger framed good boned cattle?

Big ones, but it's a trap, SRG, get past it. Just make them more middle of the road, but not dumpy. Control the averall size by age at marketing and mangement of feeding program the last 60 days before marketing.


- If we want a premium for our calves, who do we have to
please, other commercial cattleman or the feeders?

None of the above, I retain ownership on mine. Serving either of them is fallacy.

I make the most money by defying all the phony antagonisms you are griping about. Everything you listed is totally controllable with a little thought, get out of the trap you are in. Really think about what you are saying, and then you can make money for your producers.

Until then, you will just be selling them bigger and bigger mentality. It works in the good times. Falls on it face, when the whole picture of cow cost, and total ranch profitability per unit of output is calculated.

You'll do fine as long as you sell to your kind of customer. To someone more output/input based, you cattle will fail.

mtnman

 

[W.B.]

I have to agree with mtnman. Efficiency is still the number one objective. Feed efficiency in the cowherd is related to feed efficiency in the feedlot.


As far as the Leachman #s go. In the environment where they did the research there could very well have been a drastic difference in the pregnacy rate of the two different groups. When feed is limited the smaller cows will be more apt to get bred.


The secret IMHO is to ty them all together. Have cows that will wean heavy calves and excel in the feedyard and on the rail and still be feed efficient. I think you need some Hereford blood in the recipe to do all this. I am a commercial cattleman and not a Hereford breeder. As far a cow size goes we must agree to disagree as not everyone is in the same environment. We finish all our own calves and feed them here at home and I can tell you for certainty that just because you have a bigger cow that you will not have a bigger faster gaining steer. We need to select for cattle that will grow fast and finsh their growth curve sooner so that mature weights will stay in check. This is more important to the cow calf man than all the carcass data you can gather.

 

[sillco]

I hear the heavier calf but can't you run more lighter weight cows and get more pound at weaning that way instead of just running the big horses?

While it's true that a larger cow has more maintenece reuirements then a smaller cow, it isn;t directly proportional to the size. A cow that's 20% heavier doesn;t require 20% more nutrition.
If you sell by weaning weight, is possible that the higher weight calf will bring more dollars after the maintenance costs are figured in.
Stop me if yu've heard this before, but a lot of it goes back to marketing. If the market wants 6 weight calves and you're weaning 450s, to get them up to that weight is going to cost more dollars. You gotta know your costs of production.

dun

Interesting. If an acre of land can support 2000 lbs of beef is it better to have smaller cow that will produce more calves or large cows that will produce maybe one calf? Just thinking. :roll:

 

[dun]

Interesting. If an acre of land can support 2000 lbs of beef is it better to have smaller cow that will produce more calves or large cows that will produce maybe one calf? Just thinking. :roll:

That's one of those chicken and egg deals in my mind. Never have found any straight black and whites, except black baldys and Holsteins, most of the rest is a shade of grey

dun

 

[sillco]

Interesting. If an acre of land can support 2000 lbs of beef is it better to have smaller cow that will produce more calves or large cows that will produce maybe one calf? Just thinking. :roll:

That's one of those chicken and egg deals in my mind. Never have found any straight black and whites, except black baldys and Holsteins, most of the rest is a shade of grey

dun

I may not have chosen a big enough number of pounds per arce to make this appliciable. But if you had two cows each weighting about 900 lbs and each producing a calf that weighted 400 lbs wouldn't that be more beef produced per acre that one cow weighting 1600 lbs and weaning a calf that weighted 600 lbs? I know the number of pounds per acre I chose do not work for this example, but you get the idea.

 

[MikeC]

Interesting. If an acre of land can support 2000 lbs of beef is it better to have smaller cow that will produce more calves or large cows that will produce maybe one calf? Just thinking. :roll:

That's one of those chicken and egg deals in my mind. Never have found any straight black and whites, except black baldys and Holsteins, most of the rest is a shade of grey

dun

I may not have chosen a big enough number of pounds per arce to make this appliciable. But if you had two cows each weighting about 900 lbs and each producing a calf that weighted 400 lbs wouldn't that be more beef produced per acre that one cow weighting 1600 lbs and weaning a calf that weighted 600 lbs? I know the number of pounds per acre I chose do not work for this example, but you get the idea.

And by using your same "Cowboy Math" that 400 lb calf will only producea 550 lb. carcass on the kill floor, and the 600 lb. calf will produce a 950 lb. carcass.

It all depends on the marketing scheme of the individual producer. Some like them big and some don't.

As it should be. ;-)

 

[Brandonm2]

A 900 pound cow who only weans a 400 pound calf is a cull. Now give me a 900 pound cow who weans 500+ lb calves and we can talk. If a calf weighed 75 pounds at birth, he SHOULD have gained more than 325 pounds in the next 7 months. That big 1600 pound wench who is only weaning 600 lb calves better not slip up AT ALL either. In a really good set of cows, she might find her big self on a cull truck too if somebody takes the time to run the cow efficiency numbers.

 

[sillco]

Interesting. If an acre of land can support 2000 lbs of beef is it better to have smaller cow that will produce more calves or large cows that will produce maybe one calf? Just thinking. :roll:

That's one of those chicken and egg deals in my mind. Never have found any straight black and whites, except black baldys and Holsteins, most of the rest is a shade of grey

dun

I may not have chosen a big enough number of pounds per arce to make this applicable. But if you had two cows each weighting about 900 lbs and each producing a calf that weighted 400 lbs wouldn't that be more beef produced per acre that one cow weighting 1600 lbs and weaning a calf that weighted 600 lbs? I know the number of pounds per acre I chose do not work for this example, but you get the idea.

And by using your same "Cowboy Math" that 400 lb calf will only produce 550 lb. carcass on the kill floor, and the 600 lb. calf will produce a 950 lb. carcass.

It all depends on the marketing scheme of the individual producer. Some like them big and some don't.

As it should be. ;-)

I understand about likes and dislikes of people, but the fact remands, more beef can be produced per acre with two smaller calves than one larger one and a large cow will require more grass than a smaller one. I can remember when we raised those frame score 10 cattle that were over six feet tall at the withers. They required a lot of grass. The frame score 5 & 6 cattle of today require much less grass.

The fact goes back to a story I saw, I think on this site, that goes like this: Which would you like to own a 50,000 lb truck load of 650 lb calves or the same truck load of 450 lb calves?

I would take the latter. It would have more calves to sell and the price per pound would be higher.

 

[dun]

I understand about likes and dislikes of people, but the fact remands, more beef can be produced per acre with two smaller calves than one larger one and a large cow will require more grass than a smaller one. I can remember when we raised those frame score 10 cattle that were over six feet tall at the withers. They required a lot of grass. The frame score 5 & 6 cattle of today require much less grass.

The fact goes back to a story I saw, I think on this site, that goes like this: Which would you like to own a 50,000 lb truck load of 650 lb calves or the same truck load of 450 lb calves?

I would take the latter. It would have more calves to sell and the price per pound would be higher.

Everybody seems to have a fixation with weight, a FS 5-5.5 that ways 1200-1300 lbs is still my choice. We may have one cow that's a 6-6.5 and weighs 1600 lbs. Asd I said before I guess I need to get rid of the easy keeping genetics and go with Jerseys.

dun

 

[MikeC]

Which would you like to own a 50,000 lb truck load of 650 lb calves or the same truck load of 450 lb calves?

I would take the latter. It would have more calves to sell and the price per pound would be higher.

You are looking at it only with the perspective of selling feeders.

I would certainly rather wean the 650 weight calves and ship them directly to feed than to wean the 450's and have to feed them that much longer.

Those 650 weight calves took 77 cows to produce them.
Those 450 weight calves took 111 cows to produce them.

That's 34 more cows to maintain year round. And another bull.

Yea, I would take the truckload of 450's if I didn't have to feed all those mamas either. :roll:

 

[Saltydawg]

Well I'm still new at this game compared to a lot of you but my aim for my cows is about frame score 5.5 and a weight of about 1200-1400lbs. They are my best performers in almost every measurable way.

I like big volume cows with moderate frames that maintain condition easily.

It has been my experience (as limited as it is compared to some of you) that a large volume cow has fewer calving difficulties and performs better in my environment.
I live at 2000 ft elevation in the "snow belt" of upstate NY....it gets cold here, stays cold, and we get lots of snow.

I have to feed hay for a significant part of the year so feeding 1400lbs through a long winter is much easier than feeding 1800lbs.

Summer temps rarely get much over 80 degrees here for any extended length of time. 90 degrees is REALLY hot for this area and i don't think there's ever been a 100 degree temp recorded where im from.

I don't really care how "big" they are....it just seems that my 1200-1400 lb cows are my best performers. They throw great calves and hold condition very well

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Which would you like to own a 50,000 lb truck load of 650 lb calves or the same truck load of 450 lb calves?

I would take the latter. It would have more calves to sell and the price per pound would be higher.

You are looking at it only with the perspective of selling feeders.

I would certainly rather wean the 650 weight calves and ship them directly to feed than to wean the 450's and have to feed them that much longer.

Those 650 weight calves took 77 cows to produce them.
Those 450 weight calves took 111 cows to produce them.

That's 34 more cows to maintain year round. And another bull.

Yea, I would take the truckload of 450's if I didn't have to feed all those mamas either. :roll:

Like I've said before, that's 34 more cows that COULD get sick, COULD have calving difficulties, HAVE to be run thru the chute for vaccinations & worming. That's 34 more doses of vaccinations that don't care how big the cow is. Labor has got to enter into the picture.
And that was a terrible example using a 1800# cow weaning a 600# calf :shock: That's 33% of her body weight - she would have been culled first year on most anyone's farm.
And by my sales of last year, I sold 750-900# calves (weaned over 1 month & preconditioned) for $1.15/# I do not see those 450# wt calves that would weigh maybe 550# at sale time, making me more money.

 

[greenwillowherefords]

Most people will now agree that a moderate frame, 4.5-6 frame is the way to go. As Dun and Ollie have pointed out, volume on that frame is essential.

What I don't understand is the assumption that you HAVE to increase the frame score to increase weaning weights. It is possible to maintain frame score and increase weaning weight through selection pressure.

I am aware that several of you have let me know in the past what you didn't like about the phenotype of some of my cattle in the past. Regardless of all that, they are functional, they are average around a frame 5.5, and weigh around 1200# in moderate condition. Average weaning weights are around 650# without creep on much less than ideal pasture. Last year, our heaviest bull weaned at 709# at 207 days.

 

[Ned Jr.]

I feel flesing ability is the key. I have seen hard keeping frame 4 cows and easy keeping frame 7's. The easy keepers will breed back better witch is key to profit. You need to look at her calf to see if she is working or not but I think people read to much in to frame. I wish it was that easy

 

[Ned Jr.]

I feel flesing ability is the key. I have seen hard keeping frame 4 cows and easy keeping frame 7's. The easy keepers will breed back better witch is key to profit. You need to look at her calf to see if she is working or not but I think people read to much in to frame. I wish it was that easy

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Having run weight range cattle between 1000 lbs and 1800 lbs, my best returns are on the 1400 weight cows, in my area. The little 1000 lb cows were awful easy keeping, but they didn't wean much calf and feedlot performance on those calves was down. The 1800 lb animals weaned off nice calves, but feedlot performance was the same as calves from the 1400 lb animals, and the feed bill was out of proportion to the extra weight they were carrying. Having run weight range cattle between 1000 lbs and 1800 lbs, my best returns are on the 1400 weight cows, in my area. The little 1000 lb cows were awful easy keeping, but they didn't wean much calf and feedlot performance on those calves was down. The 1800 lb animals weaned off nice calves, but feedlot performance was the same as calves from the 1400 lb animals, and the feed bill was out of proportion to the extra weight they were carrying.

[The above is a quote from Rod of Diamond Cattle Company]

This is an example of a very succinct and pragmatic report from a man who has 'been there and done that!" Crossbreeding operations have proven over and over that the most economical and profitable management methods are to focus your brood cow weights between 1100 - 1400 lbs, and balance the forage consumption accordingly. A cow with a frame score of 5.5 - 6.5 (sustained on an AVERAGE during her calf-producing years) will maintain her HEALTH and her PRODUCTION levels in the most optimal manner, and the "Proof of the Pudding" is in the bank account at the end of her production years!

Well done, Rod!

DOC HARRIS