hooks to pins angle

[City Guy]

I am confused about the proper angle from hooks to pins. I have heard show judges praise the "level from hooks to pins" angle, but looking at the pictures of a cow skeleton I keep in my desk, it seem to me an angle closer to 45 degrees would make calving easier. I know that distance between pins is probably of greater importance, but I'd like to know you gentlemen's andladies' opinions.

British breeds seem to be more level and Continental and African breeds usually have much steeper angles.

 

[inyati13]

I am confused about the proper angle from hooks to pins. I have heard show judges praise the "level from hooks to pins" angle, but looking at the pictures of a cow skeleton I keep in my desk, it seem to me an angle closer to 45 degrees would make calving easier. I know that distance between pins is probably of greater importance, but I'd like to know you gentlemen's andladies' opinions.

British breeds seem to be more level and Continental and African breeds usually have much steeper angles.

I share your concern. I have a great cow, good phenotype and genotype, registered simangus. Sired by Shocking Dream and on the maternal side is out of a Hudson Pine Exar Cow family. I have been told she has too much slope to her hip. I have watched her spit out a 97 pound calf like it was a pea.

Some of the "show traits" do not have merit for the commercial cattleman.

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

Some of the "show traits" do not have merit for the commercial cattleman.

True to some extent in this case. I think that many show cattle take the ideal slope too far, but for the most part, many are right on point. It is not just about that angle exclusively, that angle will have a direct impact on how the hocks hang and how strong they are over the loin. Both of those things are very important to commercial cattleman.

Skeletal design is all lines and angles. If you draw a stick figure of a horse, cow, dog, ect. that is all lines and circles for joints, it is easy to see how they all should lay out/line up. I honestly have found looking at old horse encyclopedias a good way to learn how the skeleton on four legs functions. Yes, there some very specific differences between cloven hooved animals and equines, but I have yet to find a cattle encyclopedia that lays it out as well as those old European horse books. :2cents:

 

[Ebenezer]

Slope is good in a real world cow that you want her to make old age. For a show heifer to make it to 2 or 3 YO they like them flat. But then they seem to like performance bulls that have sway backs like the old grey nag. How come all three are not the same? Reality versus dream world and sci-fi? Don't know. But I know real world.

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

Here's a highly competitive Angus show heifer....

And here she is with her third calf. She spits out 90+ pound calves with no issues.



Granted, she's young yet, but I don't foresee longevity issues with her just based on her hip structure....

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

And here she is with her third calf. She spits out 90+ pound calves with no issues.

Edit* that is her 4th calf...brain fart!

 

[City Guy]

So, maybe the angle has little to do with calving ease?

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

So, maybe the angle has little to do with calving ease?

I'm sure it does , I just think that most of those show heifers are not as extreme as some people think. If they were, they wouldn't move as well as they do. You have to look past the hair and glue. There is a whole industry devoted to those products, so you have to consider their impact on the picture presented. Check out those same heifers on the wash rack before the show, the change is night and day....

 

[Ebenezer]

Here's a highly competitive Angus show heifer....

And here she is with her third calf. She spits out 90+ pound calves with no issues.



Granted, she's young yet, but I don't foresee longevity issues with her just based on her hip structure....

How would you rate the set of the legs and the hoof structure? Have the rear hooves ever needed trimming? If you picked her out of a group of half sibs, did all of them have proper leg set and angle?

Here's a bigger question: when was the first time you saw either a cow with a ski jump tailhead or a swaybacked bull? They seem to be recent issues (years). I just wonder where it came from and why either are so prevalent today?

 

[cow pollinater]

I don't mess with show cattle if I can avoid it but I've noticed that when the cow evaluaters came into my dairy herds to look at progeny the daughters with no angle or even high pins always scored better on udder traits and as long as they were fairly correct it didn't beat up their feet and leg scores all that bad. If the cow had to much slope it tends to throw the udder forward and make it look messy even if it is correct in all traits. Think of clothes hanging on the line, you change the appearance of the same clothes by moving one side of the clothes line up or down.

 

[Jessica06]

There's a difference between high pins and a high tail head. Just because they have a high, fancy tailhead doesn't mean they have a high pin set. I would say that heifer is pretty much ideal.

 

[Jessica06]

Super nice pair, btw!

 

[Nesikep]

Here's one of my best calving ease cows... from nose out to calf out 3 minutes for a 140 lb calf

Vid of it happening?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwcnbPEmnRs

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

Ebenezer, I would consider her structure pretty good. Overall, she has a bit more set to her hock than our purebred Limis, but she is a purebred Angus, so I figure that is acceptable. She was trimmed as a show heifer in her younger days, mostly just to clean up the edges, not to hide any issues. This is par for the course in show cattle. She hasn't had her feet trimmed since, and doesn't need them done now. She is often still shown as a Cow/Calf pair in fact. She has several half sibs, in 3 different herds we run. I will try to find some pictures of half sibs to post. My brother has a bunch of half sibs females (same sire)in his commercial herd and loves them. That cow's dam is in my sister's herd producing Lim-Flex offspring for her and has kept all of her daughters as replacements as well.

Ricebelt, thanks for the compliment!

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

Here's a Lim-Flex bull by the same sire.


And another.


And their sire.

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

*DDP*

 

[WRFarms]

When the angle from the hooks to the pins increases beyond the ideal ~20-25 degrees it causes problems. It introduces unsound structure in the hind legs. The cow will walk under herself with her legs angled too far ahead. She will have difficulty moving at speed or on a slope. It also forces the udder lower to the ground and may additionally reduce udder attachments.

A good length between the pins and hooks and a wide rump will permit a cow to have a calf of reasonable size. At least 7% of her body weight and typically more.

In show cattle, the term level may be misleading here. The slope from the hook to the pin should not be flat, but the tailhead to the hooks should be.

 

[RiverHills]

Sorry for my ignorance but would you guys mind explaining, with some pics of cows, showing what your looking at as for "hooks to pins"

 

[dun]

Easiest explanation I can think of the hooks are the hip bones and the pins are the bones just below the tail on the rear of the animal

 

[Duramaxgirl]

This was posted else where on here. And it helped me understand the hooks and pins on a cow