Hey Hereford Folks....

[bball]

Im not too good with epds. Been looking at these 2 bulls. Will be used for terminal calfs, but in case end up with a nice heifer that might like for a replacement..i know cant have it all, but any thoughts appreciated.

Epd. Bull1. Bull2

CED. -0.9 -0.1
BW. 4.6 4.0
WW. 51 50
YW. 81 77
Milk. 24 20
M&G. 50 45
Calv eas mat. 0.4 -1.7
Mat cow wt. 87 82
Udder. 1.16 1.14
Teat. 1.14 1.16
Scrot circ. 1.0 0.8
Ribeye. 0.55 0.32
Marbling. 0.14 0.07
BMI indx. $19 $17
CEZindx. $14 $13
Bll indx. $18 $15
CHB indx. $26 $23

Thanks again for any inputs.

 

[bball]

Sorrybfor the jumble...it was all nicely spaced when i entered it...first numbers are for bull#1, next numbrrs for 2..

 

[Alan]

Still lots of info missing with those EPD's. Mainly missing is the accuracy ratings/percentages. EPD's tend to change, a lot on young bulls. Also what kind of cattle are you going to use the bulls on? Bull #2 seems to be the easier calving bull but #2 has slightly better growth and carcass traits, which seems to go along with larger birth weights much of the time. I can't recommend which bull for you to use, for me I tend to go toward an easy birth and healthy calf on the ground rather than a hard pull and weak new born...... Especially as I get older. Any chance of getting the Bulls names or pedigree.

 

[mrvictordomino]

Assuming the accuracy of the EPD's are similar as well, not much difference in the numbers of the two bulls.

 

[bball]

Sorry about not including the accuracy on them..lots of P and P+ and the epds acc with numbers are similiar. Bull 1=reg # 43489158. Sire= pwf last chance p124 et, dam= tf lady 7L 025. Bull 2 = reg #43489146. Sire = c&L loewen stimulus m326 9w, dam = pwf emma p115. The cows are mostly all crosses...either simxang or gelbxang, maybe a few shorthornxang. Looking for some terminal 3 way cross, but also have a couple fullbloods (angus and gelbvieh) that i would possibly keep the f1 heifers out of (presuming they have one and are suitable). I guess im wondering how you would rate these bulls on their epds. Just average, below average??? are those calving ease numbers pretty high? Or nothing to be too concerned with? I guess im wondering are there any big red flags based on epds? And is the ww/yw decent enough to raise some decent feeders? I know theyre just numbers. The bulls look good and have been fed and raised up pretty well best as i can tell. Bse completed.

 

[Stocker Steve]

The numbers are the same.
Pic the one that likes you the most. :nod:

 

[Alan]

Again just speaking for me and my experience with my cows, the bw's are pushing being too high for me... but may be fine for your herd. I don't AI anymore and depend on live cover for my small herd now. When I did AI I learned the hard way not to rely on a Bulls EPD's with low percentage.

 

[Ned Jr.]

I agree with Alan that the BW numbers are on the high end. Other than that I don't see anything out of line. I could not and would not be able to tell you which bull is the best by looking at these numbers. I'd encourage you to quit looking at them and go look at the bulls.

 

[SPH]

Calving ease and BW numbers are a little too high for my liking, especially if you plan to breed to heifers or retain females from them. What were their actual BW? Other than that I would throw out the EPD debate because they are pretty close and go with the 1 you like better pheontypically. I like to look at the performance pedigree information too... Bull #1 had a weaning ratio of 104 meaning he probably was one of the better weighing bulls in his group at weaning, his dam has 3 calves with average weaning ratio of 100.7 which means in her contemporary calving group her calves have been just slightly above average. Bull #2 had a weaning ratio of 102, his dam has had 2 calves at average ratio of 101. So both bulls at least on paper seem about equal from EPD and performance pedigree standpoint and we at least in the top half of their contemporary calving group at weaning out of cows that have had at least average to above average calves at weaning.

Other than that without actual visuals to look at I can't really give you any other opinion. I could show you EPD numbers from calves we decided to steer or cull that look good on paper but visually or weight wise they weren't good enough so just use EPDs as 1 selection tool and not the main reason you pick 1 bull over the other.

 

[Herefords.US]

Sorry about not including the accuracy on them..lots of P and P+ and the epds acc with numbers are similiar. Bull 1=reg # 43489158. Sire= pwf last chance p124 et, dam= tf lady 7L 025. Bull 2 = reg #43489146. Sire = c&L loewen stimulus m326 9w, dam = pwf emma p115. The cows are mostly all crosses...either simxang or gelbxang, maybe a few shorthornxang. Looking for some terminal 3 way cross, but also have a couple fullbloods (angus and gelbvieh) that i would possibly keep the f1 heifers out of (presuming they have one and are suitable). I guess im wondering how you would rate these bulls on their epds. Just average, below average??? are those calving ease numbers pretty high? Or nothing to be too concerned with? I guess im wondering are there any big red flags based on epds? And is the ww/yw decent enough to raise some decent feeders? I know theyre just numbers. The bulls look good and have been fed and raised up pretty well best as i can tell. Bse completed.

Looking at the low accuracy EPDs AND their performance pedigrees, there is not enough difference between these bulls in anything ON PAPER to hang your hat on. I would make my decision based on phenotype, disposition, and current size (taking into consideration there is a 3 month difference in age). Others have expressed concern about their BW and I will disagree with them - when it comes to breeding anything but heifers. They are pretty much the same in their BW, both being only slightly above breed and peer average, and should be OK to use on cows that have calved at least once.

This is a perfect example why I am so vocal concerning the way academics and CERTAIN breeders tout EPDs as a selection tool in selecting unproven bulls. You have to go back in these two bulls' pedigree 2 and 3 generations before you find any bulls in them that have EPDs with any reliable accuracy levels (.6 or higher). There is just not enough there to make any kind of reliable decision of choosing between these two bulls - based on numbers alone.

 

[Alan]

You're getting some good advice here on these Bulls IMO. It's been a while since I really studied EPD's but I learned a few years ago Herefords EPD's run a little higher than Black Angus, meaning a Hereford bull with a BW of 4.0 = a Black Angus bull with a BW of approximately 5.0. At least that was what I learned a few years ago I'm only assuming it's still the same.

 

[WalnutCrest]

Have you seen either one in person?

Have you seen calves out of either one?

Structure? Udder quality and attachment? Etc?

 

[KNERSIE]

Have you seen either one in person?

Have you seen calves out of either one?

Structure? Udder quality and attachment? Etc?

Surely that is not as important ans assumption based, computer generated numbers?!

 

[bball]

Have you seen either one in person?

Have you seen calves out of either one?

Structure? Udder quality and attachment? Etc?

Surely that is not as important ans assumption based, computer generated numbers?!

.Yes I have seen them both. No haven't seen calves out of either. Both have gentle temperament and are very similar in physical appearance.

I'm not real strong with epds which is why I posted the question to folks who are much better with them...so a genuine thank you to all of you who provided constructive feedback and inputs. I greatly appreciate it and y'all were very helpful.

I think it's wise to use ALL the info available, Including computer generated assumptions I guess, but thanks anyhow. :tiphat:

 

[WalnutCrest]

If you liked them both equally, get enough semen to AI half your girls to one and half to the other ... look at the calves you get out of them and decide if you want to use either/both next year.

Or, based on what you've said and the info given, that's probably how I'd make this decision.

Good luck to you!

 

[RisingCreekHerefords]

I agree with the general consensus. BW is a little on the high side for me. The Hereford average for birth weight is 3.6. If you are AIing, can I make a suggestion? Feltons Legend 242. He is a low birthweight, good growth, good milk option for crossbred heifers. No, I don't have any association with the breeders or owners. I have used a grandson of this bull for clean up in my own herd and have LOVED the calves. The bull himself weighed 2100# but I could still throw heifers out with him and never worried. I pulled one calf the 4 years I used him and it was because of a freak issue, not calf size. His daughters are producing for me now.

Also, the Legend bull is fairly cheap for a proven bull. He is a sire of distinction in the Hereford breed.

http://www.reedent.com/reedent/cattle/f ... ns242.html