certherfbeef":1ujj9uek said:
1848,
Chris H and I have had the same situation arise with scurrs. We both know what the rule states and neither of us are into streaching the rules. In my case, I called hereford about my calf. They told me I could remove them and they would record on the registration papers polled/scurred. A scurr is not a horn.
The field rep agreed that they were scurrs and agreed that I could remove them and designate the calf polled/scurred.
, then they are dehorned and are recorded as horned.
Boyd Blue blood for example...I'm told he showed as a horned bull with a smooth head. He was scurred and they removed them without their field rep's "ok". If they had jumped thru the proper hoops, he would have shown polled.
The scurrs are removed on show cattle to improve the general appearence not to decieve anyone. I have every intention of makeing it know that my calf was scurred. Based on my dealings with Chris, I'm sure she does as well.
Back to the origional question...How about Gerber Lombardi. Alan?
You both know the rules...but :roll:
Listen to what you are saying here
"If they are removed before the proper documentation is made" What good is documentation if we are going to mask the genetic make-up of an animal?
"The field rep agreed that they were scurrs and agreed that I could remove them and designate the calf polled/scurred."
What was probably meant here is that the calf could be registered under polled but should be listed in the database as scurred. A search of polled genetics for given traits would bring the calf up, but the individual animal would be listed as scurred (including the registration papers). There is no AHA database which searches for "scurred genetics" (which would probably be helpful, but is inevitable with the breed so is it really necessary?)
"He was scurred and they removed them without their field rep's "ok". (need to interject this here :roll: ) If they had jumped thru the proper hoops, he would have shown polled."
So are we going to talk about showing, or are we talking about breeding stock? Is there a difference...should there be a difference? I doubt general appearance is the motivation. It's about marketing good polled or horned genetics. How many people (buyers. etc) you think research polled genetics when they look at a bulls lineage on paper and then see his picture for winning awards at the nationals. They see a smooth head and assume polled. Most informed buyers seeking polled genetics would not consider the bull if they knew he was....or had been...scurred. T205, F243, and many other popular bulls in the past, and even current ones, have fallen into this trap and are no longer desired in the immediate lines of polled animals because of their genetic makeup. I'm sure 'ol Blue blood lost allot of popularity because of this fact, and the breeder hurt their reputation....(maybe just a tiny bit..
)
I would never purposely register a calf that is scurred... as a polled animal. I feel if my customers wanted to know the genetics, or if anyone wanted to know the genetics down the line by looking through the AHA database then I need to have there classification listed correctly. I would not want to be searching for polled genetics in an animals line, only to find out later the sire, dam or particular animal was actually scurred ( just as certherf and Ollie have demonstrated in the case of 19D in this thread) However, there are some of my cattle which have developed scurs later and were sold before the papers could be changed so it was out of my hands. I have had papers changed to reflect the later if they are in my possession and I note the change or occurance.
I suppose you can argue show rules with breeding animals all day long as to what is appropriate and what is not, but as for me I think the show rules elude to the same justification as we should expect in breeders reporting breeder stock. It keeps the system accurate, and keeps the strains from being misinterpreted in their genetic make-up. If I sold a bull to an individual who was looking for straight polled genetics and I had the scurs removed, listing him as polled, then what am I saying? Even if I informed the individual of my asthetic alteration of the animal and the buyer was still ok with it?... (because of not being educated or familiar with it),.. that person could still remarket the animal with my brand on the papers and the new owner would not know the difference until a higher number of scurs and horns appeared in the calves...ruining his opinion of my reputation, my breeding stock and my genetic base in my herd.
Whew! Lot of typing...
