Heres a birth weight question

Help Support CattleToday:

greenwillowhereford II":1b3rq1py said:
I must respectfully disagree. I've had a few that did.

You realize that means you had around 90lbs of growth in the first month? Did you weigh these calves at birth and then again at 1 month or did you take a 205 day and just average it across all days? Anyway, even if the calves were growing fast at the end of the month, there is no way they were growing 2.75 lbs at birth. A calf will fill out in the first couple days after birth, but thats not growth, but rather body fluids.

Rod
 
DiamondSCattleCo":3hzixxo7 said:
greenwillowhereford II":3hzixxo7 said:
I must respectfully disagree. I've had a few that did.

You realize that means you had around 90lbs of growth in the first month? Did you weigh these calves at birth and then again at 1 month or did you take a 205 day and just average it across all days? Anyway, even if the calves were growing fast at the end of the month, there is no way they were growing 2.75 lbs at birth. A calf will fill out in the first couple days after birth, but thats not growth, but rather body fluids.

Rod

I should have clarified. By the end of the month yes. At birth absolutely not. Yes, I have weighed at birth, and again in the 50-some day range. When the average is already nearly 3.5 adg shy of two months old, I think it would be safe to say they were at least very close to 2.75 at a month old. These calves were sired by the Day Rupert Tone 092 bull, and the first five months especially were phenomenal growth by his calves. Two in particular I recall, one with a 53 day weight of 273, and another with a 70-some day weight of 320.

Again, I think most of us agree that there is no 2.75# gain in the womb.
 
I remember a discussion,just can't remember if it was on here, or something I read, or heard....my remembery just ain't what it used to be. Anyway, the topic was birth weights and the rate the fetus grows in the last month but specifically the gain after the due date. The crux was that the fetus once fully developed, will gain at a more rapid weight in the womb up to 2 lbs a day when over due. Anyone else hear/see anything that agrees????
 
DiamondSCattleCo":1jrhib3n said:
Herefords.US":1jrhib3n said:
I'd be surprised if an average calf gained 10 lb. in the last 10 days prepartum but I have no actual data to back that up and I haven't been able to find any.

My vet always uses 1 lb per day when overdue. No calf will grow at a rate of 2.75 lbs/day in the womb, mainly because no freshened calf grows at 2.75 lbs/day. Fresh calves in their first month wouldn't even be hitting 2.75 lbs/day at the end of their first month.

Rod

Not to be argumentative.

But see my post in the other column. I had a calf average 3.66 pounds per day for the first 9 days post partum.
 
Body condition and feed have more to do with birthweight than the bull or the cow. For instance if you feed a dry dairy cow like a high producing one you will be doing C-sections. Silage fed beef and grass fed beef will show a big difference also. JMO
 
Temperature
Temperature has been shown to have a significant impact on calf birth weight. Although using sires with low birth weight EPDs may reduce some calving problems, environmental factors are responsible for approximately 55 percent of calving difficulties. Calf birth weights can vary significantly from year to year even though the same genetics and management are used.

Several studies have shown that calves born in the fall weigh less than calves born in the winter and spring months. The increase in fetal weight during the cooler winter months is most likely because of increased nutrient intake from supplemental feeding by the cow. As the nutrient intake increases, nutrient flow to the fetus increases, which can result in increased growth rate.

A long-term study was conducted at the University of Nebraska to determine the effects of temperature on calf birth weight (Deutscher et al., 1999). The coldest winter during this trial resulted in an 11 degrees F difference in winter temperatures. This difference resulted in an 11 pound increase in calf birth weight. Their research concludes that calf birth weights will increase 1 pound, and calving difficulty will increase by 2.6 percentage points for each 1 degree F reduction in average winter temperatures.

Most fetal growth occurs three months prior to calving. Therefore, temperatures during this time period will have a greater effect on calf birth weight. When considering temperature, fall calving herds should have fewer calving problems and lower death loss than herds calving in the winter and spring months. Producers should avoid calving in the summer months. Research has shown that calves born from May through September have lower weaning weights than calves born in cooler months (Sprott, L-5381). High summer temperatures and humidity are stressful to young calves, which reduce their growth. In addition, forage quality declines throughout the summer and contributes to poor performance of calves born in the summer months.

Feeding
The effects of different feeding levels on dystocia and birth weight are summarized in Table 2. High feeding levels precalving had no significant impact on birth weight or dystocia. Reduced feeding levels, however, can actually reduce cow weight gain, decrease milk production, increase incidence of scours and, most importantly, decrease pregnancy rate (Table 3).

Developing heifers on a low nutrient diet has clearly demonstrated an increase in dystocia. This is primarily due to poor skeletal growth and therefore smaller pelvic areas. Research has demonstrated that heifers with a pelvic area of less than 140 cm2 have increased incidence of dystocia compared to their above-average contemporaries (Deutscher, 1990). Delaying the time of first calving until 3 years of age decreases but does not eliminate dystocia.



Table 2.Effects of precalving feed level and sex of calf on calving difficulty.

Precalvinga Feed Level

Number
AVG BW (lbs)
Calving Difficulty Percent

High (13.9 lbs TDN)
Male
16
64.2
50


Female
16
61.3
22


AVG

62.8
36



Low (7.5 lbs TDN)
Male
15
58.6
46


Female
15
58.6
34


AVG

58.6
40

a 90 days before calving.
Adapted from Bellows and Short, 1978.




Table 3. Effect of feed level on factors other than dystocia.

Feed Level
Cow Weight Change
Milk Production
% Treated for Scours
Pregnancy Rate

Low (9 lbs corn)



65%

High (15 lbs corn last 90 days
100 lbs


83%



Low (5 lbs corn)
(-142.2 lbs)
9.1 lbs
52
68%

High (12 lbs corn last 30 days)
(-21.8 lbs)
12 lbs
33.4
82%

Adapted from Bellows, 1978; Corah, 1978.




Overfeeding heifers causes internal fat deposition, which obstructs the pelvic canal. In a beef cattle operation, overfeeding is seldom a major contributing factor to dystocia. All managers, however, must balance between achieving maximum frame growth without allowing excessive fat deposits. Fat heifers will have high incidences of dystocia just as severely as underdeveloped heifers (Table 4). Feed heifers to calve with a body condition score of 5 to 6 (scale 1 to 9; 1 = emaciated and 9 = obese). These heifers will have a much better chance of producing a live calf with minimal difficulty and returning to estrus sooner than a cow in poor condition.
 
Shorthornguy":n9aauoko said:
Body condition and feed have more to do with birthweight than the bull or the cow. For instance if you feed a dry dairy cow like a high producing one you will be doing C-sections. Silage fed beef and grass fed beef will show a big difference also. JMO

Very true! Our breed cannot be overfed in their last trimester or you WILL have calving problems. Learned the hard way by many.
 
MikeC":1uldos0p said:
But see my post in the other column. I had a calf average 3.66 pounds per day for the first 9 days post partum.

But how much of that is simply filling out with fluids versus genuine growth? I've weighed calves that were 100 lbs at birth, then weighed them again 3 days later and they weighed another 20 lbs more due to full bellies and the rumen filling.

Rod
 
DiamondSCattleCo":1ifd0hel said:
MikeC":1ifd0hel said:
But see my post in the other column. I had a calf average 3.66 pounds per day for the first 9 days post partum.

But how much of that is simply filling out with fluids versus genuine growth? I've weighed calves that were 100 lbs at birth, then weighed them again 3 days later and they weighed another 20 lbs more due to full bellies and the rumen filling.

Rod

I have no way of knowing the answer to your question.

I also have no way of knowing how you know that your 20 lbs. was due to rumen filling.. ;-)

If they can only hold 2 qts. of milk, that would only be 4 lbs. :D
 
Studies have actually shown that if you take a heifer from a 4-5 bcs to a 5-6 bcs in the 60 days prior to calving BW does go up minimally but calving difficulties goes down. They have found that cattle in good shape can work longer during the calving sequence and can mother a calf better after. The old theory of skinny heifers not having problems has been busted for a long time. I calved out some fat and sassy 2 year old heifers last year, probably BCS 8 or so, calves came easy at 70lbs average. I think heifers and cows should be kept in the 6-7 range.
 
by TEhayandcattle on Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:15 pm

Not only the bulls condition during conception
That's like saying "use a young bull for heifers & his calves will be lighter" :shock:
Genetics are genetics. It doesn't make any difference if the bull or cow is GLOBBY FAT at conception. Or whether the bull weighed 1000# as a yearling or 2000# as a mature bull at conception.
I fully believe 2.75#/day growth AFTER birth is easily done.
I do not believe 2.75#/day after due date. Nothing to back that up but experience.
The bull siring late gestations cows consistently NEED to get a "bad rap" if the calves are excessive BW's. Sure the cow has the most to say about gestation length & size of calf, but is the bull is proven to CONSISTENTLY sire long gestation high BW calves, it should effect his EPD's.
I know a farm that deducts 1# for every day late to report the "actual" BW :shock:
 
1.1 is what I would expect.
ABSOLUTELY, they are '"fudging". ACTUAL BW is ACTUAL weight day they are born. Other "things" are taken into account when calculating EPD's. If they want to convince their buyers that the 100# BW is because he was late and he won't throw big calves, so be it. But if he actually scaled 100# at birth, that's what has to be reported - not 90# because he was 10 days late!
Let the buyer decide if he wants him with ACTUAL information - not fudged!

You can play with numbers all day & make them "work" for you.
I could take my cows that always spit out a calf 20# heavier BW than the average in my herd, and take 20# off the BW & say it's OK because it's the cows fault. :shock:
Whatever that calf is at birth, is what is in his genes & can be passed on.
Sure, we can overfeed & get the calf maybe 10# heavier (that's what research says if you increase BCS on a heifer to get her up to where she should be), and that won't have much affect on that calf's offspring, but report what it is - not what you would like it to be.
 
But how much of that is simply filling out with fluids versus genuine growth? I've weighed calves that were 100 lbs at birth, then weighed them again 3 days later and they weighed another 20 lbs more due to full bellies and the rumen filling.

There is essentially no rumen in a 3 day old calf. Pretty much a monogastric animal like us at that stage. Milk goes directly to the abomasum (stomach like ours). Like Mike says, just weight of milk in stomach, plus growth.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/DS061
 
WAguy":1lk6qg6r said:
There is essentially no rumen in a 3 day old calf. Pretty much a monogastric animal like us at that stage. Milk goes directly to the abomasum (stomach like ours). Like Mike says, just weight of milk in stomach, plus growth.

Milk may go directly to the abomasum, but the rest of the body cavities are filling with fluids and the other stomachs are already beginning development. As Mike said, I have no way of really knowing what share of the 20lbs was growth, and what was fluid, but my calves don't exhibit 3 lbs/day growth until they hit 4 or 500 lbs, so I know for sure there was little growth in those 3 days.
 
whatsupdoc3":1ecl4usw said:
I have noticed over time how people condem birth weights of anything in 90 lbs and up range.

There are factors that cause larger weights rather than genetics and more so than most are willing to admit.

If the normal cows gestation time table is 283 days and a cow goes 10 days over there is no acuracy to the weight. Why because a calf begins to grow in the cow at due date at the rate it will grow if outside the cow.

So if a cow is raising a calf with a gain of 2.75 pounds of gain per day. Then the calf is growing everyday past term it stays in the cow at the same 2.75 lbs per day. Or in the case of a calf 10 days past term 27 1/2 pounds heavier than the birth weight would have been on the 283 day gestation period.

Now heres another factor some cows have normal breed gestation tables of 287 288 days. So the breed with 283 days versus the breed with a 5 day longer gestation table is naturaly going to birth a heavier calf every time there is 1 or 5 days difference.

I have been reding much where there really is no reliance on days rather when the cow gets ready thats whats normal. Young cows birth early older cows tend to go past term. :idea:

I think that it just comes out to degree of selection. IF I am buying ONE bull this year. A typical 120 reg cow herd has ~30 bulls they CAN sell me (~their top half). There are probably 5 such herds for any common breed within 250 miles of your typical farm (and with Angus it just seems like there are twice that many). So without any great effort you got 150 bulls to select your one from (and some people have THAT on one farm). It is naturally to sort them first by getting rid of the outliers. The bull with the 109 lb birth weight is like the bull with the 455 lb weaning wt. It might not be his his fault; but in a buyer's market why even consider him????
 

Latest posts

Top