Hereford Phenotype

[KMacGinley]

Since the Hereford has been the prime subject on this board recently, a question that has been bothering me for a while is the look of the A list herefords I see in the catalogs... I don't remember them being so straight fronted and shallow flanked back in the seventies and 80s, what happened?

 

[Herefords.US]

Since the Hereford has been the prime subject on this board recently, a question that has been bothering me for a while is the look of the A list herefords I see in the catalogs... I don't remember them being so straight fronted and shallow flanked back in the seventies and 80s, what happened?

Mac, I don't know if you get it, but I just got the latest edition of The Lamplighter from Jim Lents. Often, I don't agree with Jim, but he certainly poses some thought provoking questions about what has happened to the Hereford breed and I think Hereford breeders could benefit from reading it and mulling it over a bit.

George

 

[KMacGinley]

George: Is it on the web?

 

[Herefords.US]

George: Is it on the web?

I don't think so, Mac. Jim Lents is getting his web-site launched. I think one of the people that posts here is doing it for him.

But I'll PM his address and phone number to you, so you can contact him.

George

 

[KNERSIE]

Since the Hereford has been the prime subject on this board recently, a question that has been bothering me for a while is the look of the A list herefords I see in the catalogs... I don't remember them being so straight fronted and shallow flanked back in the seventies and 80s, what happened?

I actually think that alot of progress has been made in the last few years with regards to the flank issue. The high shallow flanks were very typical in the racehorse era when frame and growth was priority no 1. Bulls from the late eighties and early nineties were much worse than modern bulls in the flank.

The straight fronts is very common in the USA and Canadian genetics and is something rarely seen here. I can only assume that the showring is to blame where cattle that are slightly straight in both the shoulder and the hocks stand tall and have more showring presence. Using the hot bull from Denver year after year can easily fix this in your herd without you even noticing untill its too late

 

[1848]

I accidently posted this on the Hereford Buls thread first.

To answer the question, I think some of the phenotype selection has to do with the change in market demands, and what type animal is more functional for a given geographical area or management program. Show cattle will reflect those trends, no matter what breed, and it will sooner or later be incorparated into the judging of breeds. Through advertising, this this becomes norm, and then we loose some of the traits which made the breed great.

As much as the Hereford was and is a stand alone breed, the traditional short, heavy, hairy, backfatted animal is not always the ideal animal for every situation. In an effort to meet commercial cattlemans needs a little leg, shorter hair and a different front end (probably for less waste and as a fix for calving issues in a cross bred situation) have been incorporated.

That is the one thing I admire about the horned side of the breed when it comes to advertising....they seem to still value the commercial side a little more and don't just rely on a good show photo. Not saying there isn't allot of super polled animals out there, it's just the way they are advertised and marketed.

 

[OK Jeanne]

Knersie: When & if you get over here to the usa for a
visit, note that Jim Lents is only about 40 or so miles
from our place!

 

[Bluestem]

George: Is it on the web?

I don't think so, Mac. Jim Lents is getting his web-site launched. I think one of the people that posts here is doing it for him.

But I'll PM his address and phone number to you, so you can contact him.

George

He's getting there.
http://www.anxietyherefords.com

 

[leeshy]

Since the Hereford has been the prime subject on this board recently, a question that has been bothering me for a while is the look of the A list herefords I see in the catalogs... I don't remember them being so straight fronted and shallow flanked back in the seventies and 80s, what happened?

One prob;em may be, because we base more and more opnion on EPD rather than what the animial really looks like. I think we as breeders put to much faith in an EPD and then at a later date are proven wrong.

 

[cfpinz]

Since the Hereford has been the prime subject on this board recently, a question that has been bothering me for a while is the look of the A list herefords I see in the catalogs... I don't remember them being so straight fronted and shallow flanked back in the seventies and 80s, what happened?

Herefords are one of my favorite breeds, our family has owned them in one sort or another since the first half of the 20th century, maybe longer. But with all the nonsense about herefords on here I'm just about sick of hearing about them. This is the first interesting hereford topic I've read about on these boards in a long time.

cfpinz

 

[KNERSIE]

Since the Hereford has been the prime subject on this board recently, a question that has been bothering me for a while is the look of the A list herefords I see in the catalogs... I don't remember them being so straight fronted and shallow flanked back in the seventies and 80s, what happened?

One prob;em may be, because we base more and more opnion on EPD rather than what the animial really looks like. I think we as breeders put to much faith in an EPD and then at a later date are proven wrong.

I agree 100%, EPDs are a tool, but not the only tool.

That is where the breed by numbers method will always fall short.

 

[KNERSIE]

Knersie: When & if you get over here to the usa for a
visit, note that Jim Lents is only about 40 or so miles
from our place!

Thanks, I was actually aware of that. Do you know him well?

 

[ollie?]

Hereford breeders have added muscle over the last 20 years. To do that you have to widen the shoulders at the chime area. It's hard to keep proper slope to the shoulders when you widen the width between them. I think they have deeper flanks than they generally did in the 80's.

 

[I luv herfrds]

In our operation Leeshy we have gone from just "looking" at the bull and cows and have gotten more into looking at the EPD's. This does not mean that we no longer look at the bull to see how he looks, in frame, size, color, temperment and muscle.
The EPD's allow us to see what this animal will possibly bring into our herd.
A few years ago we got a large dark red bull from our cousin. Did not throw the greatest bull calves, but boy did he throw some great heifer calves. Do not know his who his dam or sire were, but it was a great mix. He was a narrow type of bull, but he had some great length on him. With what he brought into our herd we have improved by bringing in some different bulls with more muscle.

 

[leeshy]

In our operation Leeshy we have gone from just "looking" at the bull and cows and have gotten more into looking at the EPD's. This does not mean that we no longer look at the bull to see how he looks, in frame, size, color, temperment and muscle.
The EPD's allow us to see what this animal will possibly bring into our herd.
A few years ago we got a large dark red bull from our cousin. Did not throw the greatest bull calves, but boy did he throw some great heifer calves. Do not know his who his dam or sire were, but it was a great mix. He was a narrow type of bull, but he had some great length on him. With what he brought into our herd we have improved by bringing in some different bulls with more muscle.

I strongly agree with you. When you have nothing to go by . EPD's aare a very importent. Atleast by useing them it takes alot of the guesswork out. Over the years we have tried to put alot of value in what the mother was. In my opnion the more great mothers you can line up in a pedigree the less disapointed you will be in their offspring. I am so tired of feeding a heifer for two years and being so disapointed at calving time because they cant feed their own calf. I know their can be a thing as to much milk and cows won't hold their body condition and breed back. But it is far worse if they can't milk at all. I think we can all say diffrent invirements would require diffrent EPDS. A person in a desert with cattle walking miles to water verses a person with lush green irrigated grass would require diffrent set of EPD'S. We as hereford breeders are trying to make the best of both worlds.

 

[iowahawkeyes]

Since the Hereford has been the prime subject on this board recently, a question that has been bothering me for a while is the look of the A list herefords I see in the catalogs... I don't remember them being so straight fronted and shallow flanked back in the seventies and 80s, what happened?

One prob;em may be, because we base more and more opnion on EPD rather than what the animial really looks like. I think we as breeders put to much faith in an EPD and then at a later date are proven wrong.

I think that is one problem in the Angus breed. We used to raise Angus and they went to the numbers and carcass game instead of phenotype. There are some ugly Angus bulls and females (see Chuckie's post) and I just can't hardly stand to look at them anymore. We wanted females with bone and substance and it was not to be found.