Hereford/ Black simmentals vs. Hereford/ Black angus

[BRAFORDMAN]

Black baldies or good white face cattle sell well in my area. I have a herd of horned hereford cows and I have been using a good black angus bull on them as well as a red angus plus bull on them. I have been pleased with the results of each cross. The cows milk well and are easy keepers. But I am considering trying something different in order to increase my weaning weights at selling time.

I am considering using a homozygous black and polled simmental bull on the herefords to produce black baldies.

Has anybody had any luck with that cross? And could females from that cross be used as replacements?
What are the Pros and cons off the simmental hereford cross vs the black angus hereford cross?

Thanks for any comments.

 

[KNERSIE]

Don't know much about the make believe simmentals, but a fullblood simmental crosses very well with hereford, but does have higher maintenance needs than a straightbred hereford or a baldie. The simxherf cow will outperform the baldie IF she receives adequate nutrition.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Don't know much about the make believe simmentals, but a fullblood simmental crosses very well with hereford, but does have higher maintenance needs than a straightbred hereford or a baldie. The simxherf cow will outperform the baldie IF she receives adequate nutrition.

thats the problem ive had with em, having to prop em up

 

[FlyingLSimmentals]

Find a Homozygous Black Dream On son and use him and I guarantee you that you won't be disappointed. I haven't seen a Dream On son fail yet. Not only should you get a little more weight using a simmental bull but you will also gather some style and sharpness. I haven't seen a Dream On son that couldn't throw some style. My Dream On son isn't all that sharp or super looking but darn it his calves are. The problem may be that you might have a hard time finding a Homozygous Black son. But other Simmental bulls will work as well. There's some Simmental Bulls that might give you to much bulk mixed with a Horned Hereford depending on how much is desired. There's good Angus Bulls out there to whom can throw extra weight just watch your selection and pick one with good growth #'s. You could also try a little of both and pick a Sim/Angus, there is some nice ones out there.
I wouldn't say one cross is better than the other if chosen correctly.

 

[L Weir]

We use black Simmental bulls on our 3 hereford cows. They do alright. Our main herd is simmental. My daughter is showing 2 ( our opinion) 3/4 simm,1/4 hereford heifers as a 4-H project. One is solid black out of a baldie cow. The other is a black baldie heifer out of a black baldie cow. Both of their dams are out of polled hereford cow. I don't have pictures.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

If you find equal type/style/size bulls - Angus and Simmental - genetics tells us that the Simmental "should" outperform the Angus cross because of the better hybrid vigor (British x British or British cross Continental).

 

[JSCATTLE]

Black bald face sell well here too . I'm running horned hereford bulls on my brangus cows . should have some really nice super baldies next year . I have my fingers crossed. I need to hold 30 or so back as replacements .

 

[MF135]

Don't know much about the make believe simmentals, but a fullblood simmental crosses very well with hereford, but does have higher maintenance needs than a straightbred hereford or a baldie. The simxherf cow will outperform the baldie IF she receives adequate nutrition.

I heard that! Im so tired of hearing people think you make selection solely based on which registration the animal is recorded in. Its all about the TYPE. Perhaps new distinctive terminology regarding type needs to be developed ( maybe it has I just don't know it) so that questions like BRAFORDMAN asked can be more accurately answered. Just in the small area I'm in, there is considerable difference in the type of Angus bred from one ranch to the next. Same with Hereford. I can show you some of the framiest herefords I've ever seen within about 10 miles from some that look like they're out of the 1951 Livestock Selection book I have. To suggest selection based on breed alone to someone when there are these extreme variations (and everything in between) within the breed is just irrational. I understand the thought is "generally speaking" -meaning most breeds have a standard, but I don't know if thats the case anymore. At least it's not around here.

I am so frustrated by purebred breeders who try to make their breed the "complete package" and totally disregard which traits they've forgone in their attempts. "The jack of all trades is the master of none" I can't think of any better way of putting it. Breed maternal breeds for their maternal qualities and terminal breeds likewise for theirs.

If you find equal type/style/size bulls - Angus and Simmental - genetics tells us that the Simmental "should" outperform the Angus cross because of the better hybrid vigor (British x British or British cross Continental).

This is the fudamental problem- the fact that you "can" find equal type/style/size bulls in breeds thats characteristics should be antagonistic. When herefords inherited goggled eyes and huge frames (FB Simms) and when FB Simms inherited their black hide and became a CE breed (Angus), your Hybrid vigor theory was thrown out the window.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

MF135-

"This is the fundamental problem- the fact that you "can" find equal type/style/size bulls in breeds thats characteristics should be antagonistic. When herefords inherited goggled eyes and huge frames (FB Simms) and when FB Simms inherited their black hide and became a CE breed (Angus), your Hybrid vigor theory was thrown out the window"

You have engaged in a subject that is the epitome of current "impetuous" responses, or actions, by many breeders. Unfortunately, beef cattle producers have attempted to "capture Genetic perfection dreams" in a bottle, and consider that solution to be the "ultimate" answer to all of their mating problems!

... and... they are often WRONG!

The Hybrid Vigor "theory" is NOT a theory - it is a verifiable fact! The "Fly in the Ointment", so to speak, is when breeders focus on ONE or TWO specific traits, jump to conclusions and consider them to be the "Mother Lode" of Beef Breeding Perfection! Some of these antagonistic relationships are not strong, BUT, intense selection over time will ultimately create undesirable results.

Regardless of whether our operating regimes are with Registered Purebred cattle, or quality crossbred protocols, the seedstock selection principles for achieving success remain, fundamentally, the same. By utilizing proven and effective technologies and accuracies in mating and management programs, any dedicated producer can elevate his current beef cattle business into a more PROFITABLE enterprise.

MF135, your understanding of antagonistic characteristics in 'crossing' different types is astute and correct. The critical factors in management techniques and understanding 'selection' traits and characteristics is how we combine acceptable and unacceptable Genetics into a workable and practical business. The well-thought out and prudent decisions will determine future successes. It is important that we focus on high accuracies for traits, and not throw out the baby with the bath water. It is desirable that we capitalize on "Multiple Trait Selection" decisions to arrive at the almost perfect combination.

DOC HARRIS

 

[MF135]

MF135-

"This is the fundamental problem- the fact that you "can" find equal type/style/size bulls in breeds thats characteristics should be antagonistic. When herefords inherited goggled eyes and huge frames (FB Simms) and when FB Simms inherited their black hide and became a CE breed (Angus), your Hybrid vigor theory was thrown out the window"

You have engaged in a subject that is the epitome of current "impetuous" responses, or actions, by many breeders. Unfortunately, beef cattle producers have attempted to "capture Genetic perfection dreams" in a bottle, and consider that solution to be the "ultimate" answer to all of their mating problems!

... and... they are often WRONG!

The Hybrid Vigor "theory" is NOT a theory - it is a verifiable fact! The "Fly in the Ointment", so to speak, is when breeders focus on ONE or TWO specific traits, jump to conclusions and consider them to be the "Mother Lode" of Beef Breeding Perfection! Some of these antagonistic relationships are not strong, BUT, intense selection over time will ultimately create undesirable results.

Regardless of whether our operating regimes are with Registered Purebred cattle, or quality crossbred protocols, the seedstock selection principles for achieving success remain, fundamentally, the same. By utilizing proven and effective technologies and accuracies in mating and management programs, any dedicated producer can elevate his current beef cattle business into a more PROFITABLE enterprise.

MF135, your understanding of antagonistic characteristics in 'crossing' different types is astute and correct. The critical factors in management techniques and understanding 'selection' traits and characteristics is how we combine acceptable and unacceptable Genetics into a workable and practical business. The well-thought out and prudent decisions will determine future successes. It is important that we focus on high accuracies for traits, and not throw out the baby with the bath water. It is desirable that we capitalize on "Multiple Trait Selection" decisions to arrive at the almost perfect combination.

DOC HARRIS

Doc trust me I understand hybrid vigor, I just don't believe continental x British hybrid vigor can be fully expressed using a polled black bull on hereford cattle. Imo, those looking to maximize hybrid vigor,given you have a British or British x indicus base, will seek terminal bulls of a continental breed that are registered as Full Bloods.

 

[L Weir]

It should say two nice heifers (our opinion) for 4-H projects.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Don't know much about the make believe simmentals, but a fullblood simmental crosses very well with hereford, but does have higher maintenance needs than a straightbred hereford or a baldie. The simxherf cow will outperform the baldie IF she receives adequate nutrition.

Might want to go with a Balancer, get a 3 way cross calf, and save a little feed.

 

[Brandonm22]

I really don't see the problem here. There "might" be a touch of Simmental in your registered Hereford and there "IS" an Angus component in your black registered Simmental (probably a touch of Hereford too if you go far back enough). All this tells you is that you need a long term business relationship with your seedstock supplier(s). Different bloodlines, different sires within breeds are going to do more for you than others. You need to take the time to be educated about the EPDs, the real world expected performance, the strengths, the weaknesses, phenotype, etc of the bloodline you are bringing into your herd. A larger commercial outfit needs to know something about the bloodlines they bring into their herd and isn't dealing in breed generalities.........because there are no breed generalities any more in the real world.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I really don't see the problem here. There "might" be a touch of Simmental in your registered Hereford and there "IS" an Angus component in your black registered Simmental (probably a touch of Hereford too if you go far back enough). All this tells you is that you need a long term business relationship with your seedstock supplier(s). Different bloodlines, different sires within breeds are going to do more for you than others. You need to take the time to be educated about the EPDs, the real world expected performance, the strengths, the weaknesses, phenotype, etc of the bloodline you are bringing into your herd. A larger commercial outfit needs to know something about the bloodlines they bring into their herd and isn't dealing in breed generalities.........because there are no breed generalities any more in the real world.

very well explained.

 

[MF135]

I really don't see the problem here. There "might" be a touch of Simmental in your registered Hereford and there "IS" an Angus component in your black registered Simmental (probably a touch of Hereford too if you go far back enough). All this tells you is that you need a long term business relationship with your seedstock supplier(s). Different bloodlines, different sires within breeds are going to do more for you than others. You need to take the time to be educated about the EPDs, the real world expected performance, the strengths, the weaknesses, phenotype, etc of the bloodline you are bringing into your herd. A larger commercial outfit needs to know something about the bloodlines they bring into their herd and isn't dealing in breed generalities.........because there are no breed generalities any more in the real world.

The problem is fraud. Registries that allow animals upgrading to purebred status via purebreds are the culprit to our problem. If full bloods were the only acceptable upgrading avenue, breed generalities would still exist and the commercial cattleman wouldn't b so dam confused. As far as the diversity within each breed, demand these "outliers" be DNA tested and prosecute those marketing a fraudulent product for deceptive trade practices.
The sooner each breed regains their "generalities", the better off they will be.

 

[Brandonm22]

Fraud?? What fraud??? Most Simmies in America were produced by breeding American cows (usually Hereford) to imported Simmental bulls or semen. Those progeny were bred up to registered Simmental status. When Simmental needed to go black they sought out Simmentals that had been bred up from Angus herds and crossed the them to the existing white faced red/yellow Simmental cow herd selecting for the black hide. None of that is even secret. Do you think that the Simmental breeders are going to give up that black hide.....and the resulting easier keeping females and improved marbling they got from the Angus??? Angus MAY have utitlized Holstein and Chianina to get more frame and growth. There is no way to undo that (if you could prove it) and I don't think Angus wants to give up that world class post weaning growth rate. Ditto with Hereford and their "alleged" relationship with the original Simmentals. IF it happened, and I can't prove it (and darn sure wouldn't want to) do you really think that the American Hereford Association wants to do anything that would result in less registration fees being mailed in next year???

 

[1wlimo]

Fraud?? What fraud??? Most Simmies in America were produced by breeding American cows (usually Hereford) to imported Simmental bulls or semen. Those progeny were bred up to registered Simmental status. When Simmental needed to go black they sought out Simmentals that had been bred up from Angus herds and crossed the them to the existing white faced red/yellow Simmental cow herd selecting for the black hide. None of that is even secret. Do you think that the Simmental breeders are going to give up that black hide.....and the resulting easier keeping females and improved marbling they got from the Angus??? Angus MAY have utitlized Holstein and Chianina to get more frame and growth. There is no way to undo that (if you could prove it) and I don't think Angus wants to give up that world class post weaning growth rate. Ditto with Hereford and their "alleged" relationship with the original Simmentals. IF it happened, and I can't prove it (and darn sure wouldn't want to) do you really think that the American Hereford Association wants to do anything that would result in less registration fees being mailed in next year???

Thats the problem is it not? too many people want too much money now instead of thinking ahead, being honest and doing a good job

 

[Brandonm22]

I don't want to be the board crank (if I can honestly avoid it). A lot of effort has been made in recent years to prevent some of the possible abuses from the past from occurring in the present. DNA parentage tests for AI sires has become standard throughout the industry and the genetic testing for defects we have today are unprecedented. Now as for investigating stuff that happened 30-40 years ago, that is dangerous territory for any breed association to go. One could argue that any registration paper issued, even those involving a theoretically "tainted" bloodline, is a contract between the association and the purchaser of the animal that carries that regn paper. The papers SAY the animal is a Hereford, a Angus, a Simmental, a Quarter Horse, etc. and that that animal bred to another animal in that registry can produce registerable offspring. If an association then went back and purged that bloodline from it's registry for something the current owner had no part in or knowledge of, would that not be breach of contract??? If I owned a 100 registered cows and they all lost their registered status like that.......I think I would have to sue. Once you brought such a suit in the depositions you would ask all of the current and former breed officers and field men what did they know and how long have they known it and why did they issue me a registration paper without informing me that there was a possibility however small, that the registration paper was not accurate, and was that act not fraud?. I don't think any breed association REALLY wants to ever put themselves in that situation. If the American Hereford Association says that a bull with the diluter gene IS a registered Hereford, then it is a registered Hereford according to their rules. Likewise if the American Simmental Association declares that a solid black, polled, frame four bull possesses all of the characteristics and credentials to be a registered Simmental THEN he is a registered Simmental. I really don't have any problem with this. It is their registry they make the rules.

 

[MF135]

I don't want to be the board crank (if I can honestly avoid it). A lot of effort has been made in recent years to prevent some of the possible abuses from the past from occurring in the present. DNA parentage tests for AI sires has become standard throughout the industry and the genetic testing for defects we have today are unprecedented. Now as for investigating stuff that happened 30-40 years ago, that is dangerous territory for any breed association to go. One could argue that any registration paper issued, even those involving a theoretically "tainted" bloodline, is a contract between the association and the purchaser of the animal that carries that regn paper. The papers SAY the animal is a Hereford, a Angus, a Simmental, a Quarter Horse, etc. and that that animal bred to another animal in that registry can produce registerable offspring. If an association then went back and purged that bloodline from it's registry for something the current owner had no part in or knowledge of, would that not be breach of contract??? If I owned a 100 registered cows and they all lost their registered status like that.......I think I would have to sue. Once you brought such a suit in the depositions you fwould ask all of the current and former breed officers and field men what did they know and how long have they known it and why did they issue me a registration paper without informing me that there was a possibility however small, that the registration paper was not accurate, and was that act not fraud?. I don't think any breed association REALLY wants to ever put themselves in that situation. If the American Hereford Association says that a bull with the diluter gene IS a registered Hereford, then it is a registered Hereford according to their rules. Likewise if the American Simmental Association declares that a solid black, polled, frame four bull possesses all of the characteristics and credentials to be a registered Simmental THEN he is a registered Simmental. I really don't have any problem with this. It is their registry they make the rules.

Its not on my charolais or shorthorn papers, but on the bottom of my gelbvieh registration papers, there is a disclaimer stating that the gelbvieh association makes no guarantee as to the accuracy of the pedigree only that the breeder registered them and any discrepency is between buyer/ seller.

If a DNA test would dispute an associations claim, then fraud is being commited. Period.

 

[Brandonm22]

If a DNA test would dispute an associations claim, then fraud is being commited. Period.

If the DNA test shows that the parents of an animal ARE it's parents, then I think that is all that can be either guaranteed or expected. Guaranteeing the accuracy of a pedigree for eight generations is an unreasonable standard. Far more cattle than we want to think about carry pedigrees with inaccuracies. I don't think any of us really want to open that can of worms.