Checked 23 today and had 8 open. 5 cows all bred back fine but of 18 first calf heifers only 10 bred back. They all calved back in march or early April and were ai'd may 24th. Clean up bull stayed in from June until August 27th. I dont know whether to blame the heifers or the bull. My vet said it was about typical of what she's been seeing with everyone, thinks it may be the hot year we've had. Very little rain in April/may/June. Wet and HOT July and August. Weaned calves in September and the heifers are all in pretty good shape now. I loaded the open ones and moved them to the other (fall calving) herd. Bull goes in december 10th. May regret it but I'm giving them another chance. Your thoughts? Anybody else experiencing this? Oh and breed had nothing to do with it. Of the opens were 5 angus, 2 bram x, 1 char x.....equal ratio to the bred ones.
Heifers not bred back
- Thread starter Midtenn
- Start date
Help Support CattleToday:
Keeping first calf heifers that don't breed back is risky and one of the most potentially damaging decisions one can make for his herds pofitablity due to the risk being taken with the reproductive efficiency of your herd. Those slow breeding traits ought not to be given an opportunity to propagate. AI bred AND a 90 day cleanup season, then coming to the chute open is unacceptable no matter how hot or dry it has been. The one caveat of course being if the bull isn't a a sound breeder. I'd semen test him and while he's there, swab him for trich too since that's good business and you can check that off the list for moving forward.
I do agree that there is no correlation between this issue and any given breed.
I do agree that there is no correlation between this issue and any given breed.
Stocker Steve
Well-known member
js1234":1bgbwvho said:
2X
Some continental crosses do not breed as well as the herf x angus wf, but I don't think that is the issue here.
We expect 100% breed back and the 5% that fall out are almost always purchased females.
Ebenezer
Well-known member
js1234":1yzdq8ws said:
We all need animals that fit our environment. That is the hard and expensive part of the learning curve in animal breeding. This sounds stupid at first: mere culling is not breeding selection of livestock. Merely culling every year does not yield better results until you learn how to select proper breeders for your area, forages and management. Otherwise you cull the same problems every year.
Just because a bull grows well, has the right pedigree or any other positives or sale lines does not make him a great breeder. Study your environment and see what overall type, size and thickness any native cattle or ruminant wildlife have and begin to see if you want that or are willing to pay more in quality pastures and feed to keep something different. I still think that we ruin ourselves by not judging bulls for libido rather than the main emphasis for carcass and growth.
How did they respond to syncing them for AI? If they responded should have made 5 cycles over the 90 days even if they didn't 4 cycles. For me they get 3 cycles and a trailer ride, it completely messes everything up, there out of sync with everything, AI, vaccinations.
Cattle are cheap now to sell, but if they don't produce around here they have to go, cut my losses. If you move them to fall and they still don't breed you've really lost.
Cattle are cheap now to sell, but if they don't produce around here they have to go, cut my losses. If you move them to fall and they still don't breed you've really lost.
I have a new commitment to getting rid of non-breeders. Of course I'm very land limited so it makes my decisions easier.
You checked 23 and 8 were open. It wasn't the bull. The 8 open were first calf heifers. That's all the smoking gun I would need. I would also put the dams of the open heifers of the "suspect list" of who to cull next and would not retain any heifers out of that genetic line.
Again, I'm land limited to calving 25-30 head so I have a very high threshold for what stays.
You checked 23 and 8 were open. It wasn't the bull. The 8 open were first calf heifers. That's all the smoking gun I would need. I would also put the dams of the open heifers of the "suspect list" of who to cull next and would not retain any heifers out of that genetic line.
Again, I'm land limited to calving 25-30 head so I have a very high threshold for what stays.
What kind of body condition were they in when you started breeding them? Were you feeding them pretty heavy? Trying to AI first calf heifers 45 days post calving is a little too soon unless they were in really, really good shape. Throw in that the bull was out during the summer and that's another hurdle.
I'd caution against shipping heifers just because they didn't breed back, unless they were outliers from a good breedup. Weather has a lot to do with it; good grass and rains at the right time. Just as an example, last year we ended up with, oh 15% or so breeding back?? (Not proud of it, either!!!) Fertilized pasture, supplemented with 32-10 liquid, and 2 bulls on about 20 head in good condition? This year, same genetics, developed the same, calved at the same time, I think it was around 80% in a 75 day window? One virgin bull on lightly fertilized, poorer pasture, and liquid. They might have been a little thinner, too. The difference? A really, really wet April and May the year before. This year it stopped raining while we had the bulls out and it made all the difference.
I'd caution against shipping heifers just because they didn't breed back, unless they were outliers from a good breedup. Weather has a lot to do with it; good grass and rains at the right time. Just as an example, last year we ended up with, oh 15% or so breeding back?? (Not proud of it, either!!!) Fertilized pasture, supplemented with 32-10 liquid, and 2 bulls on about 20 head in good condition? This year, same genetics, developed the same, calved at the same time, I think it was around 80% in a 75 day window? One virgin bull on lightly fertilized, poorer pasture, and liquid. They might have been a little thinner, too. The difference? A really, really wet April and May the year before. This year it stopped raining while we had the bulls out and it made all the difference.
farmerjan
Well-known member
One question, were the 8 open ones a little thinner than the rest and did they raise a big calf? We have a little more land so are maybe a little more forgiving under certain circumstances. If they raised a nice calf and seemed to milk all the "fat off their back", they will get a second chance. But that's all, never another chance. There have been alot of breeding problems here in the dairy cows that I milk test, on most all the farms, and the vets are saying it seems to be alot more frequent on all the cattle they are checking. So, that makes me a little more forgiving. We have not preg ckd yet this fall as the pastures have held up with so much wet weather early, and being able to rotate cattle around. Also, was the bull out for at least 35 days before preg cking? We had a couple that were checked open last spring and we kept them, put them back with a bull in the next group; 2 were short bred, not open, and have just calved. They will stay in this group now but will have to tow the line as they will not get a 2nd chance to be "open". Also had a group of cows preg ckd one time, had 14 out of 20 bred, and turns out something happened and the bull started shooting blanks. We had moved them into the next group, they bred right away and are the earliest calving in that group.
I am the "tough" one as far as culling, and my son kids with some of the other farmers about when mom says they go, she means it; but we also don't try for a first calf heifer to freshen before 30 months. I find we have very few problems with re-breeding if they are a little older when the first calve. We have cows with no teeth that are still settling and raising nice calves; and they will stay as long as they can produce. I think that calving a little older has helped to keep cows in our herd longer, they have the body maturity to raise a calf and breed back. Because we are basically a grass based herd, they have to do good on their own. Sure we feed some in the winter, and those old cows get extra, but they have paid for that extra over the years. And I agree, most of the problems that we have with breeding back and such, are with purchased cows. We have kept some heifers out of some of them and they usually do fine, but if not, they go.
I am the "tough" one as far as culling, and my son kids with some of the other farmers about when mom says they go, she means it; but we also don't try for a first calf heifer to freshen before 30 months. I find we have very few problems with re-breeding if they are a little older when the first calve. We have cows with no teeth that are still settling and raising nice calves; and they will stay as long as they can produce. I think that calving a little older has helped to keep cows in our herd longer, they have the body maturity to raise a calf and breed back. Because we are basically a grass based herd, they have to do good on their own. Sure we feed some in the winter, and those old cows get extra, but they have paid for that extra over the years. And I agree, most of the problems that we have with breeding back and such, are with purchased cows. We have kept some heifers out of some of them and they usually do fine, but if not, they go.
Stocker Steve
Well-known member
farmer most of the problems that we have with breeding back and such said:
Nesikep
Well-known member
since no one has mentioned it yet, I gotta say, check your minerals, get a blood test done on a few that raised the biggest calves and that should give you a good idea of where they all stand.. might cost $100 but it's a really good place to start. I had breedback problems (with older, high producing cows too) and it's been much better since I got the RIGHT mineral mix
Ebenezer":1irddcnv said:
I agree that there are many, many components to culling criteria, not least of which is the breed in general and animal in particular being the right fit to the ranches' environment.
Where I disagree with you, unless I'm not understanding you, is that culling poor breeders is always the right culling decision. As I mentioned, no one management decision can have a more detrimental affect on a herd more quickly than allowing poor breeders to stay in the herd, propagating their undesirable reproductive traits.
Open cows drain cash flow and are the most expensive animal a rancher can own. It is the managers responsibility to remove them from the equation at the earliest opportunity.
Ebenezer
Well-known member
All I am saying is that culling merely removes past bad decisions. We need to learn to make better current choices as breeders. Selecting better breeding stock pays off much better than annual culling.
angus9259":vn4jxuze said:
Land is not an issue at least not this coming year. With the low prices I can't see selling them right now. I'll turn the bull in December thru jan and if they take will become strictly as Terminal and never keep any heifers. They were all purchased not from my cows.
they were ai'd may 24th which i can discount due to "too soon" or simply didnt take. in my case it was dry April/may/ Early june. Really wet and hot in late june, July and August which was the time the cleanup bull should have got them. Are you saying the wet, hot weather during breeding season may have been your problem?!ricebeltrancher":1pmue089 said:
I probably over feed on minerals always keep it in front of them + protein whenever grass is low and mag in spring. Plus multimin twice a year. :nod: But I'm going to look into the blood test thanks for mentioning that.Nesikep":30gdjjw5 said:
For the most part it was the heifers with the growthier calves that didn't breed back. And they were only 14 months at initial breeding. They were in good shape but only around 1000 pounds at calving. Yes they dropped off pretty bad by weaning time.farmerjan":1h5qhx6q said:
How can they propagate their fertility issues if I'm only keeping them as terminal? Worst case is it cost $200 in hay and mineral for one winter, they come up open, and i sell them in the spring . Even then the market could improve.js1234":3lehdfmu said:
Best case they produce a calf to sell for 10 years
farmerjan
Well-known member
Midtenn; If the majority of the open ones were the ones with the growthier calves, had dropped off alot by weaning, and you bred them for the first time at 14 months, I am not at all surprised that they were open. That doesn't make them poor breeders, and it doesn't mean you are propagating an undesireable breeding trait. It means that they put a whole lot into their first calf and their body wouldn't breed back while it was still trying to grow its own self. I am wholly behind your decision to put them back with the bull. Like you said, if they don't breed back by spring, they will be in much better flesh and will probably bring a better price per pound so will negate a large portion of the cost to get them in better shape. I think that you might find that they will do a better job with their second calf than some of the others that bred back, because they will have a little more growth. And yes you might have them mature into cows that are in your herd for the next 10 or 15 years. Just what I do here.
Midtenn":1nz1x4vr said:
Yep. They were in a 150 ac Jiggs hay pasture. Here on the coast, a lot of rain just waters down the grass so they really don't get much nutrition out of it. Our cattle look the best when it gets dry. If we get a lot of rain, they can be standing in grass belly high and look awful.
