Heifer acceptable Hereford?

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Lazy M

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KNERSIE":3ma2lezk said:
I don't think that they're buggy, but would like to hear what the concern is.."terrible" doesn't really help me learn anything.

He has open unprotected eyes with eyelashes that points upwards. Eye conformation plays a much bigger role than anything else in the prevention of sore eyes.
Thanks. I'll pay more attention to this in the future.
 

Stocker Steve

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KNERSIE":30x3d73z said:
Sensation needs a powerful cow then he'll produce very satisfactorily. If the cow is a little frail and fine boned there isn't much to the Sensation calves.

I have not been impressed by Victor 719T calves either, but he and Sensation are the two full page Hereford bulls in the Genex catalog. Any idea why they are promoted in the Hereford world?
 

KNERSIE

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I believe we are at a point where the academici had buggered everything up to the point where stockmanship is lost and those who still focus on cattle breeding has given up marketing bulls to those who are only intrrested in numbers and papers. I have been looking at the major studs for quite a few years and can't say I've found anything I'd go through the trouble of importing semen on. In the poll segment I might still find some bulls to use as tools had I not closed my herd 7 years ago, but on the horned side there is just nothing unless you want to go the L1 route
 

smnherf

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His epd profile says that he is a prospective heifer bull, and he may very well be. I dont know his actual birth weight as he is an ET calf as his mother was. The biggest hang up I would have is that he has Online in both the maternal and paternal side of the pedigree and the Interstate bull on his maternal side. Those are absolutely NOT bulls I would recommend using on heifers. The good thing about it is that his mother and grandmother both have birth weight ratios well under herd average so you may be get along all right, as birthweight sometimes follows the maternal line. I would be mind full of the possibility of him throwing a larger than you would like calf especially if there is some birth weight bred into the heifers.
 

SPH

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KNERSIE":2dzqgtbg said:
I believe we are at a point where the academici had buggered everything up to the point where stockmanship is lost and those who still focus on cattle breeding has given up marketing bulls to those who are only intrrested in numbers and papers. I have been looking at the major studs for quite a few years and can't say I've found anything I'd go through the trouble of importing semen on. In the poll segment I might still find some bulls to use as tools had I not closed my herd 7 years ago, but on the horned side there is just nothing unless you want to go the L1 route

This may be true for some that are paying too much attention the academia part but I don't think you can completely throw performance data out the window completely either. I agree with your comment on the major studs, we find a lot more bulls that fit what we are looking for buying semen directly from a proven and reputable breeder than gambling on a young and mostly unproven sire from one of the big sire studs. We do find more times than not that when it comes to CE and BW that for the most part they hold pretty true to their EPDS, especially those with the higher accuracies. As far as the rest of it goes though, EPDs are just 1 of many tools in selection process and actual weights are nice but people also have to take into consideration that weights are going to vary a lot and can be manipulated based on the environment and management practices of the herd they are raised in too. You have to have a good understanding of how the calf was raised if you want to compare weights between different operations because the type of environment and nutrition can have a big factor on that. Someone can say they weaned a 700lb calf but at what age was that weight taken, was that with or without creep and if it was with creep at what point was creep put out, what kind of conditions and nutrition was the dam raising that calf in? You catch my drift here, even with just using actual weight data there is still some homework to be done when doing comparisons and research.

Even with those things to consider you still can't look past structural issues. We don't look past those issues in our selection process either. When choosing bulls for our sale pen we walk them around to see how they move, how are their feet and legs, what kind of muscling and top line do they have, any other structural issues to be concerned with & etc. Don't care if that bull calf may have a nice set of EPDs, if he doesn't pass the eye test he's getting cut and sent to the feedlot. What kind of dam and cow line a bull is out of should also play a factor, you want to see some longevity and above average performance in the dams back through a bull's performance pedigree and not of below average or 1 year wonders. When you think of good bulls over the years you usually find some good dams in their bloodlines.

I'm not going to deny it but we do use EPDs as part of our marketing. But a majority of our bull buyers are commercial breeders who probably aren't that interested in the EPDs as much as they are the bull himself. We also provide the actual weights and measurements data we collect at various points and we even go a further step when we do yearling BSE to ultrasound for carcass traits too. A lot of these guys are either trying a Hereford for the first time or going back to a Hereford again and they aren't there to pick out the bull with the best EPD numbers. The ones that fit the phenotype and traits they are looking for are the ones we get the most interest on. No set of EPDs is ever going to cover up a structural flaw or poor performer no matter how hard someone tries to spin the numbers on someone - what you see with your own eyes is going to make the biggest difference when making breeding decisions or selling an animal.
 

MRRherefords

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SPH":g4iq0e3i said:
KNERSIE":g4iq0e3i said:
I believe we are at a point where the academici had buggered everything up to the point where stockmanship is lost and those who still focus on cattle breeding has given up marketing bulls to those who are only intrrested in numbers and papers. I have been looking at the major studs for quite a few years and can't say I've found anything I'd go through the trouble of importing semen on. In the poll segment I might still find some bulls to use as tools had I not closed my herd 7 years ago, but on the horned side there is just nothing unless you want to go the L1 route

This may be true for some that are paying too much attention the academia part but I don't think you can completely throw performance data out the window completely either. I agree with your comment on the major studs, we find a lot more bulls that fit what we are looking for buying semen directly from a proven and reputable breeder than gambling on a young and mostly unproven sire from one of the big sire studs. We do find more times than not that when it comes to CE and BW that for the most part they hold pretty true to their EPDS, especially those with the higher accuracies. As far as the rest of it goes though, EPDs are just 1 of many tools in selection process and actual weights are nice but people also have to take into consideration that weights are going to vary a lot and can be manipulated based on the environment and management practices of the herd they are raised in too. You have to have a good understanding of how the calf was raised if you want to compare weights between different operations because the type of environment and nutrition can have a big factor on that. Someone can say they weaned a 700lb calf but at what age was that weight taken, was that with or without creep and if it was with creep at what point was creep put out, what kind of conditions and nutrition was the dam raising that calf in? You catch my drift here, even with just using actual weight data there is still some homework to be done when doing comparisons and research.

Even with those things to consider you still can't look past structural issues. We don't look past those issues in our selection process either. When choosing bulls for our sale pen we walk them around to see how they move, how are their feet and legs, what kind of muscling and top line do they have, any other structural issues to be concerned with & etc. Don't care if that bull calf may have a nice set of EPDs, if he doesn't pass the eye test he's getting cut and sent to the feedlot. What kind of dam and cow line a bull is out of should also play a factor, you want to see some longevity and above average performance in the dams back through a bull's performance pedigree and not of below average or 1 year wonders. When you think of good bulls over the years you usually find some good dams in their bloodlines.

I'm not going to deny it but we do use EPDs as part of our marketing. But a majority of our bull buyers are commercial breeders who probably aren't that interested in the EPDs as much as they are the bull himself. We also provide the actual weights and measurements data we collect at various points and we even go a further step when we do yearling BSE to ultrasound for carcass traits too. A lot of these guys are either trying a Hereford for the first time or going back to a Hereford again and they aren't there to pick out the bull with the best EPD numbers. The ones that fit the phenotype and traits they are looking for are the ones we get the most interest on. No set of EPDs is ever going to cover up a structural flaw or poor performer no matter how hard someone tries to spin the numbers on someone - what you see with your own eyes is going to make the biggest difference when making breeding decisions or selling an animal.
:clap: I have always tried to explain it to people like that but the way you put it sums it up pretty good.
 

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MRR, send me a PM, you seem to have yours disabled. Wanted to run something by you...
 

MRRherefords

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Stocker Steve":3vinmz8f said:
KNERSIE":3vinmz8f said:
Sensation needs a powerful cow then he'll produce very satisfactorily. If the cow is a little frail and fine boned there isn't much to the Sensation calves.

I have not been impressed by Victor 719T calves either, but he and Sensation are the two full page Hereford bulls in the Genex catalog. Any idea why they are promoted in the Hereford world?

I actually have a few 719t daughters and have been very impressed with them. Most breeders that I talk with also like him a lot. More his daughters then his sons. Genex promotes him in the Hereford world a lot because of the number of people that use him.
 

SPH

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MRR I got your PM but you must have something disabled in your profile because I get "Some users couldn’t be added as they have disabled private message receipt." when I try to reply. Go into "board preferences" tab in your control panel and enable "Allow users to send you private messages"
 

KNERSIE

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SPH":rm5lzug6 said:
KNERSIE":rm5lzug6 said:
I believe we are at a point where the academici had buggered everything up to the point where stockmanship is lost and those who still focus on cattle breeding has given up marketing bulls to those who are only intrrested in numbers and papers. I have been looking at the major studs for quite a few years and can't say I've found anything I'd go through the trouble of importing semen on. In the poll segment I might still find some bulls to use as tools had I not closed my herd 7 years ago, but on the horned side there is just nothing unless you want to go the L1 route

This may be true for some that are paying too much attention the academia part but I don't think you can completely throw performance data out the window completely either. I agree with your comment on the major studs, we find a lot more bulls that fit what we are looking for buying semen directly from a proven and reputable breeder than gambling on a young and mostly unproven sire from one of the big sire studs. We do find more times than not that when it comes to CE and BW that for the most part they hold pretty true to their EPDS, especially those with the higher accuracies. As far as the rest of it goes though, EPDs are just 1 of many tools in selection process and actual weights are nice but people also have to take into consideration that weights are going to vary a lot and can be manipulated based on the environment and management practices of the herd they are raised in too. You have to have a good understanding of how the calf was raised if you want to compare weights between different operations because the type of environment and nutrition can have a big factor on that. Someone can say they weaned a 700lb calf but at what age was that weight taken, was that with or without creep and if it was with creep at what point was creep put out, what kind of conditions and nutrition was the dam raising that calf in? You catch my drift here, even with just using actual weight data there is still some homework to be done when doing comparisons and research.

Even with those things to consider you still can't look past structural issues. We don't look past those issues in our selection process either. When choosing bulls for our sale pen we walk them around to see how they move, how are their feet and legs, what kind of muscling and top line do they have, any other structural issues to be concerned with & etc. Don't care if that bull calf may have a nice set of EPDs, if he doesn't pass the eye test he's getting cut and sent to the feedlot. What kind of dam and cow line a bull is out of should also play a factor, you want to see some longevity and above average performance in the dams back through a bull's performance pedigree and not of below average or 1 year wonders. When you think of good bulls over the years you usually find some good dams in their bloodlines.

I'm not going to deny it but we do use EPDs as part of our marketing. But a majority of our bull buyers are commercial breeders who probably aren't that interested in the EPDs as much as they are the bull himself. We also provide the actual weights and measurements data we collect at various points and we even go a further step when we do yearling BSE to ultrasound for carcass traits too. A lot of these guys are either trying a Hereford for the first time or going back to a Hereford again and they aren't there to pick out the bull with the best EPD numbers. The ones that fit the phenotype and traits they are looking for are the ones we get the most interest on. No set of EPDs is ever going to cover up a structural flaw or poor performer no matter how hard someone tries to spin the numbers on someone - what you see with your own eyes is going to make the biggest difference when making breeding decisions or selling an animal.

Thank you for your rather longwinded explanation, but you are still missing half of it. That's where the stockmanship part comes in.

If you're buying semen locally I agree with how you go finding your bulls, when you're importing semen it makes it a lot easier to stick to the major studs. I'm pretty sure I can find a bull or three that I would use just from the members on HT, but it would not he worth their while to go through the process just for my needs and wants.
 

elkwc

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Stocker Steve":2iifmcll said:
KNERSIE":2iifmcll said:
Sensation needs a powerful cow then he'll produce very satisfactorily. If the cow is a little frail and fine boned there isn't much to the Sensation calves.

I have not been impressed by Victor 719T calves either, but he and Sensation are the two full page Hereford bulls in the Genex catalog. Any idea why they are promoted in the Hereford world?

I agree. I haven't seen a 719T that has impressed me yet. Haven't seen one I would use in our commercial herd. They are weak in too many areas. And unless a heifer is out of a very maternal cow I've been told that they are average at best.

I've seen the same thing with Sensation. Have seen several bull from Stubers out of him that are impressive. Seen some at Van Newkirks and Upstreams also. I much prefer 3027 or 5216. Again it is person preference and what works for a person.
 

KNERSIE

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Stocker Steve":48qwub3t said:
I went back and re checked the Genex herf EPDs. I think a lot of folks are fixated on calving ease.

They are trying too hard to make a hereford like an angus without understanding the qualities that made a hereford popular in the first place.
 
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