grass based genetics.....please explain

[expensive hobby]

This is an excellent explanation of grass based genetics from a very well run operation. I hope expensive hobby read this one. Agamantoo, if you had access to non-ky31 forage for a final graze, you would probably be able to produce some fine grass-finished beef with the genetics you have selected for. This is exactly the way I run my cowherd with the exception of hay feeding during winter and I make my cows nurse just a tad longer.[/quote]Yes. Thanks for the info. Very well explained Agmantoo. Early weaning is something that I have been considering and really did not realize how much this could influence growth of muscle instead of fat. Still learning though. I really would like to put up alfalfa for winter feed but I have no experience planting anything. Just getting started, I have been using the pastures and hay fields that have been on the farm with no real change with the exception of fertilizer, lime and weed control. I guess that I was thinking that there was some magical "grass" gene but really comes down to using what works, and culling what does not. Cold climate here, so I am forced to make up for my short comings with some feed through winter. Its working for now but not ideal. Just confused at how someone can advertise animals as being "grass based." Seems like this may not necessarily be the case since one farm is different from another.

 

[robert]

I guess that I was thinking that there was some magical "grass" gene but really comes down to using what works, and culling what does not. Cold climate here, so I am forced to make up for my short comings with some feed through winter. Its working for now but not ideal.

You got it, if you allow through consistent selection and culling those that work to multiply and those that don't to fall out you will, over time, develop a productive and adapted cow herd that works within the constraints you put on it. My simple philosophy is 'carry no passengers' a calf is the cows meal ticket, no ticket - no meal, don't tolerate bad attitudes, don't make excuses, don't do cow welfare. Best of luck, you are on the right track, don't distracted by shiny advertizing and jargon, if you need new genetics find people who raise the type you like under the same conditions as you employ, they might be across the country but more likely they will be in the same area as you!

 

[Dylan Biggs]

I guess that I was thinking that there was some magical "grass" gene but really comes down to using what works, and culling what does not. Cold climate here, so I am forced to make up for my short comings with some feed through winter. Its working for now but not ideal.

You got it, if you allow through consistent selection and culling those that work to multiply and those that don't to fall out you will, over time, develop a productive and adapted cow herd that works within the constraints you put on it. My simple philosophy is 'carry no passengers' a calf is the cows meal ticket, no ticket - no meal, don't tolerate bad attitudes, don't make excuses, don't do cow welfare. Best of luck, you are on the right track, don't distracted by shiny advertizing and jargon, if you need new genetics find people who raise the type you like under the same conditions as you employ, they might be across the country but more likely they will be in the same area as you!

Well said Robert.

 

[IluvABbeef]

that looks pretty good. nice even layer. how old is the one on the hook? 2 yrs?

All those pics are of 26 to 28 month old grass finished steers. The long cold winters and short growing season here, combined with our choice of calving season, May and June, makes our grass finished two's the preference from a carcass wt and grade standpoint. A bit hard on cash flow for sure but we have been slowly positioning ourselves with the 2 yr old program for the last 16 years, when we started selling grass finished beef. We are out of 2's now for this season and will start killing some 17 month old cattle. Our carcass wts will now be in the 550 to 600 lb range. Since the grass browned off with no rain since the end of July we have been supplementing with baleage for the last 4 weeks.

Dylan

Dylan, just wondering, but do you winter graze at all? Like swath graze, bale graze, things like that?

 

[expensive hobby]

What is bale graze?

 

[IluvABbeef]

http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/crops/ ... b05s22.pdf

 

[expensive hobby]

Now that sounds like a good idea. Set all of your bales in electric before winter. Sounds like it would work but big problems if your fencing does not work. My girls would probably push the bales through the fencing in no time flat even if there are posts holding them down. Too many hills around here. I have 0 flat fields.

 

[IluvABbeef]

There are producers that put bale feeders over the bales to prevent this from happening, and to minimize waste. And of course there are different methods of fencing, not just the type that the article describes. Of course the article doesn't do a good job telling how to fence properly for bale grazing. This one does: http://www1.foragebeef.ca/$foragebeef/f ... encing.pdf

The area where I live isn't flat either, but it's just the fact of experimenting with various methods of fencing and bale placement is what could make it work.

 

[expensive hobby]

Heck, in Alberta your bales probably just freeze to the ground. Don't need to worry about them being pushed or rolling away.

 

[IluvABbeef]

True, that. Not to mention the amount of snow fall we get compared to yours also contributes to them staying put, even on a hill-side.

 

[Amo]

Interesting read. Ive been snooping around a bit on this topic. Got a few questions if you can answer.

I understand the cow/calf end of it.....smaller frame easier keeping. I know research, history, common sence says so. I just don't see how a cow that say is 5-8 inches taller would burn that many more calories (getting up and down, raising/lowering head to eat, etc.) to make them harder keeping. High milk ya, and a holestine which is bred for milk is huge frame, but what ever I guess. Also higher stocking rate maybe. Myslef I am excited for all the future data such as Residual Feed Intake.

What Im courious about is the finishing phase of it. If your in this form of production system do you have to finish them your self? I would imagine there are people in areas that purchase "grass feeders" and do the finishing....I do know of a guy in Nebraska. If you go to a barn do you save enough in feed expences (cow) and increased carrying capacity to compensate for a lower $'s per head? Yes I reaize your selling more pounds or head at a lighter weight and in theaory a lighter weight calf will bring more per #. Reciient local report 436# @ $1.93 vs. 638# @ $1.61. $186 per hd difference. I know a bit about the bigger calves. Born early to mid march. Weaned and fed silage for about 30 days. Don't know cow size, pretty sure no creep.

Then they take longer to finish. No grain or equipment, but harder on your cash flow and more interest.

What I would really like to know is the paking end of it. Are their fairly big packers that buy these animals? Im not saying like JBS/Swift size, but do you have to butcher yourself and do the farmers market/niche thing?

Don't take me wrong, sometimes I come off blunt. Im not bashing grass fed. I think it does have some merit. Just some questions that I have in my mind that I haven't found answers to yet.

 

[novatech]

Here is one mans breakdown.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4xQ5P7l ... re=related
Most grass fed operation direct market their beef.

 

[andybob]

http://chiphines.com/ One of the more controversial speakers.

 

[Commercialfarmer]

As always, this all boils down to who you are selling to. The guys touting that you can run more smaller wt calves may be correct- and I believe this. But you also have to realize that all #400 wt calves don't bring the same money. Around here, if they don't have the characteristics consistent with growth- they aren't going to bring as much as other 400 wt calves selling on the same day.

Before I buy into a system being the be all end all, I would like to see that they have a solid consistent market for the end product of the assembly line. Not just a bunch of genetics to get me started as a producer.

Multi-level marketing works great unless you are on the bottom level.

 

[expensive hobby]

Chip Hines seems to make some good points and I kind of like the idea of year round grazing......but is this realistic and does it save money/expenses? You would still need to plant "something" in the fall so the cows can graze, right? This will still be labor and cost prohibitive, right? Why not just put up hay and feed out the bales in the winter? Am I missing something? Around here the winters are tough and I can't imagine how anyone could sustain cows with no hay production. What am I missing?

 

[dun]

Chip Hines seems to make some good points and I kind of like the idea of year round grazing......but is this realistic and does it save money/expenses? You would still need to plant "something" in the fall so the cows can graze, right? This will still be labor and cost prohibitive, right? Why not just put up hay and feed out the bales in the winter? Am I missing something? Around here the winters are tough and I can't imagine how anyone could sustain cows with no hay production. What am I missing?

What you're missing is the climatic differences from one area to another. We're in zone 5 and can usually graze stockpiled forage until early spring. Our grasses go dormant in october, anything but hensbit is done growing till spring.

 

[Amo]

You tube and my net don't work well. Ive checked out Chip Hines site before. If your willing to have major fallout of your higher producing cows I would imagine his system would work. I don't think Id want PETA seeing my cows being treated that way. Im not stating they aren't being cared for. A cow is very realizent. If she is that easy keeping Im sure she is fine. There are so many people multi generation away from ag they don't realize what these pepole are doing.

I guess my thoughts are kinda like comercial farmers. I don't know if the smaller framed calf will dollar up as good as a lighter weight calf with grain fed genetics (I guess is what Id call it) gross revanue wise. Grass....less gross revanue and less expence, and production orienated....higher gross rev and higher expence? Guess thats kinda what Im asking is what do grass genetic calves $ up? Of course that can vary from region to region. I know where Im at is one of the highest regions to buy feeder cattle. Buddy talked to a guy the other night that runs the sale barn in Bassett NE. He says after the first of the year some feeders will be $1200 or more. Of course if you own a barn your going to be optimistic so he might be fudging?LOL There is no free lunch in life. Everybody wants to be profitable....thats a no brainer! As dun says you live in different areas you can do different things. Id love to graze year around. Of course if your down south you can have a more production oreintated cow that is cheaper to feed. I guess I feel if I have to put up hay I might as well have genetics with a bit more gas if you will since I have to do that anyway. Two years ago I had snow a foot deep for a month! I don't care how easy keeping your heard is you cant maintain a cow on snow.

What has me really thinking is the packing end of this. If your close to a big city with farmers markets or like to butcher and sell then maybe. Ive had enough close calls with bad checks selling hay I don't want anything to do with selling freezer beef. Like in another thread on here its all marketing. I know a feed man that could sell snow to a snow fence, so if you can spin it you can sell it. If we look at pork and chicken and verticle intergration if there are no major packers into this is this going to hold out for the long haul if we all convert over? Thing is we all know how long it takes to change the genetics in a cow herd. I remember the fad of ostridges. Healthy meat, use for leather, a couple of other things. I know several people that tried it. I think the only ones that made anything was the breeders! Maybe feed man. Growing artichokes was another fad. I guess what Im trying to spit out is we are getting fewer and fewer packers as it is. The major ones will squeeze out the smaller ones (JBS vs. Loara's lean or what ever) and I feel that your better off to raise what someone wants to buy than say here is what I have and buy it. This is what they are wanting to buy and if its not what they "want" to buy then they will buy it for what will work for them. I don't care how much cheaper (or carrying capacity) you can run a cow you will still have expenceses.

Guess its kinda a tomato tamato type of deal in my book. I mean you can have too many imputs and maybe still be making money, but your input/profit ratio will be higher with easier keeping cows. Ya if you calve with nature, use no diesel fuel you will have less expences. You can get premiums for feedlot, and quicker turn around on your money with production orienated genetics. I just don't know if the infastructure is there for grass genetics for the long haul in major volume?