genetics question

[jt]

i have a couple of questions about this..

what effect does it have on a bull's calves it he is grown off to his potential or made to rough it so that he turns out to be a smaller bull? either way, will his calves be affected?

and

i have heard alot of people talking about putting a young bull on heifers since it is their first calf.. but i think they are wrong about this idea?? i didnt figure it mattered how old the bull was... his genetics are his genetics at any age??

i think :roll: i know the answer to both of these, but want some more knowledgable folks to get me straight on it..

thanks

jt

 

[Cattle Rack Rancher]

what effect does it have on a bull's calves it he is grown off to his potential or made to rough it so that he turns out to be a smaller bull?

If you stunt him too much, it can affect his fertility. From a genetics standpoint, the actual DNA of the semen will not be changed by the condition of the bull.

 

[fellersbarnoneranch]

As for young bull on heifers--they match up a little better weight-wise, but young bull can throw monster calves, so he better have the right "stuff" to be anywhere near my heifers.

 

[jt]

cant remember how to do the double quote think here, but crr and fellarsbarnone... thanks... that is what i thought.. seems to me that genetics is genetics... regardless.


jt

 

[1848]

what effect does it have on a bull's calves it he is grown off to his potential or made to rough it so that he turns out to be a smaller bull? either way, will his calves be affected?

i have heard alot of people talking about putting a young bull on heifers since it is their first calf.. but i think they are wrong about this idea?? i didnt figure it mattered how old the bull was... his genetics are his genetics at any age?

I'm with CRR, and FBR, on the points that it could affect a bulls fertility, and you don't want a very heavy bull hurting small heifers, plus a few other reasons you don't want runt bulls working cows, (height, pushed around being an ineffective breeder, etc.) but....

If I went to a car lot and got with the owner to look at his cars, and he showed me a old voltzwagon beetle, and a nice pretty cadillac in the same lot for the same price? Even if he assured me that I would be very satisfied with the beetles fuel economy, and down the road and I would save more money? I think I would choose the nice looking cadillac so I could impress all my friends, and at least make them think I got a much better deal; even if it cost me more in the end. I could probably sell it for more of a profit just by looks alone.

Most people will choose the cadillac to show off, or hide the beetle in the garage!... :lol: Just hope all your calves don't say they want to grow up and be just like daddy!

 

[El_Putzo]

This is similar to a question I had about whether or not I should keep all of my heifers as replacements. I mean doesn't it make sense that even though a particular heifer may not grow as well her contemporaries, if she has good genetics, shouldn't she have the same potential as a momma? This is of course barring any physical defects and or lack of mothering menatallity. My thinking is to keep all physically able heifers, and cull on mothering ability after the first calf. Am I wrong in thinking that just because one heifer is smaller than her contemporaries, that she will make just as good a momma?

 

[jt]

what effect does it have on a bull's calves it he is grown off to his potential or made to rough it so that he turns out to be a smaller bull? either way, will his calves be affected?

i have heard alot of people talking about putting a young bull on heifers since it is their first calf.. but i think they are wrong about this idea?? i didnt figure it mattered how old the bull was... his genetics are his genetics at any age?

Just hope all your calves don't say they want to grow up and be just like daddy!

:lol: this has nothing to do with my bull... or a runt bulls ability to breed, etc.... it was strictly a genetic question...i got asked this question the other day, and wasnt 100% i knew the answer... :lol:

jt

 

[Cattle Rack Rancher]

This is similar to a question I had about whether or not I should keep all of my heifers as replacements. I mean doesn't it make sense that even though a particular heifer may not grow as well her contemporaries, if she has good genetics, shouldn't she have the same potential as a momma? This is of course barring any physical defects and or lack of mothering menatallity. My thinking is to keep all physically able heifers, and cull on mothering ability after the first calf. Am I wrong in thinking that just because one heifer is smaller than her contemporaries, that she will make just as good a momma?

You have to remember that the characteristics displayed in any animal aren't the only ones in their genetic make up. You may have a really nice looking animal, bull or cow that may have some poor recessive traits. Essentially, every animal has paired DNA sequences. Half of the pair comes from the sire and half come from the Dam. If the animal that you have is displaying alot of these poorer recessive traits from the parents, you are usually better not to keep them for your breeding program.

 

[jt]

a friend and i were talking about bulls the other day, and the idea of putting a young bull of about 18 months old on a small herd if need be.. and the conversation went along the lines that by doing so he might not grow off as well because of that... because he has been getting better feed where he is at and just the fact that once you put him on some cows he would run some of that weight off.. and that is when the genetic question came up...

jt

 

[El_Putzo]

This is similar to a question I had about whether or not I should keep all of my heifers as replacements. I mean doesn't it make sense that even though a particular heifer may not grow as well her contemporaries, if she has good genetics, shouldn't she have the same potential as a momma? This is of course barring any physical defects and or lack of mothering menatallity. My thinking is to keep all physically able heifers, and cull on mothering ability after the first calf. Am I wrong in thinking that just because one heifer is smaller than her contemporaries, that she will make just as good a momma?

You have to remember that the characteristics displayed in any animal aren't the only ones in their genetic make up.

To go along with what you said: So unless you are culling specifically on size (BW, WW and YW) you should wait until after the first calf to cull. Because, besides EPDs,their is no way of knowing what kind of calving ease or milking ability a heifer will have until after she has the first calf, correct?

For example, a particular heifer that is out of a high growth, low BW, good Milk Epd bull, may not grow out as well as her contemporaries. We'll just say she was wormy or had some other cureable health problem that limited her growth up until she was a yearling. Using my theory, I would keep her, if her numbers were good and she didn't have any incureable health problems.

Another example. Say another heifer who is out of the same bull as above, just doesn't grow well. She doesn't have any health problems, but maybe it is like you said, the growth trait is recessive. Wouldn't you still be better off keeping her until she calves one time to see if the growth trait doesn't skip a generation and show up in her offspring? After all, the growth genetics are supposed to be there, it's just that they were recessive in the heifer, this does not mean the growth trait can't reappear in her offspring.

 

[Cattle Rack Rancher]

They'll lose a bit of condition alright. As long as you don't put much more than 15-18 cows with him, he'll be okay. Saw a guy last year put a yearling bull out with 50 cows. Most of them were already bred but just with what he had to breed and constantly checking out all the other cows, he was looking pretty rough by the time he came in in the fall. Was talking to the guy a couple of weeks ago. He said the bull caught some sort of virus after that and slimmed right down almost to nothing. Right now that bull is in with a bunch of open heifers but the guy says its not breeding anything. Probably an expensive lesson for him.

 

[1848]

what effect does it have on a bull's calves it he is grown off to his potential or made to rough it so that he turns out to be a smaller bull? either way, will his calves be affected?

i have heard alot of people talking about putting a young bull on heifers since it is their first calf.. but i think they are wrong about this idea?? i didnt figure it mattered how old the bull was... his genetics are his genetics at any age?

Just hope all your calves don't say they want to grow up and be just like daddy!

:lol: this has nothing to do with my bull... or a runt bulls ability to breed, etc.... it was strictly a genetic question...i got asked this question the other day, and wasnt 100% i knew the answer... :lol:

jt

oh! at least I got my two cents in about runt bulls! :lol:

 

[Cattle Rack Rancher]

To go along with what you said: So unless you are culling specifically on size (BW, WW and YW) you should wait until after the first calf to cull. Because, besides EPDs,their is no way of knowing what kind of calving ease or milking ability a heifer will have until after she has the first calf, correct?

For example, a particular heifer that is out of a high growth, low BW, good Milk Epd bull, may not grow out as well as her contemporaries. We'll just say she was wormy or had some other cureable health problem that limited her growth up until she was a yearling. Using my theory, I would keep her, if her numbers were good and she didn't have any incureable health problems.

Another example. Say another heifer who is out of the same bull as above, just doesn't grow well. She doesn't have any health problems, but maybe it is like you said, the growth trait is recessive. Wouldn't you still be better off keeping her until she calves one time to see if the growth trait doesn't skip a generation and show up in her offspring? After all, the growth genetics are supposed to be there, it's just that they were recessive in the heifer, this does not mean the growth trait can't reappear in her offspring.

Some heifers are designed for breeding and some heifers are designed for feeding. My experience has been that if the heifer is small and is carrying some poor traits, it's probably designed for feeding. I had one that looked not bad structurally but a bit small a couple of years ago. I let the bull breed it and kept it anyway because it was a purebred and I paid alot of money for her mother and her as a pair. After the $300 ceasarean bill and bottle feeding the calf for a couple of months because the heifer rejected it, I made a decision not to do that again.

 

[jt]

what effect does it have on a bull's calves it he is grown off to his potential or made to rough it so that he turns out to be a smaller bull? either way, will his calves be affected?

i have heard alot of people talking about putting a young bull on heifers since it is their first calf.. but i think they are wrong about this idea?? i didnt figure it mattered how old the bull was... his genetics are his genetics at any age?

Just hope all your calves don't say they want to grow up and be just like daddy!

:lol: this has nothing to do with my bull... or a runt bulls ability to breed, etc.... it was strictly a genetic question...i got asked this question the other day, and wasnt 100% i knew the answer... :lol:

jt

oh! at least I got my two cents in about runt bulls! :lol:

:lol: yep.. and i agree with you 100%

jt

 

[bwranch]

Some heifers are designed for breeding and some heifers are designed for feeding. My experience has been that if the heifer is small and is carrying some poor traits, it's probably designed for feeding.

Agree 100%. Sometimes in the genetic world two rights can make a wrong. Only exception might be if you could attribute poor growth, etc. to a management issue or a specific cause. For example, last year we had a 16 yr old with a heifer calf. Mama has raised dynamite calves for the last 5 years. This year she developed mastitis and the heifer was shorted at the dinner table. She started out pretty poor. By the time we weaned though, she had made some dramatic gains, but still short of the average by about 125 lbs . Decided to keep her back cause I really like the breeding and she's got a nice conformation. Her yearling weight will put her about average I'm guessing. Could be we got lucky.

 

[Scotty]

I was told when you buy a bull that was fed first give him a time out to get over not having grain with some grazing and hay. Think the program said a month or so. Never had a problem with them turned in with cows if the trap wasn't to big. I think that is the main thing in "melting one". The draw back wiht that is, me anyway, when I buy something I am ready to use it NOW.


Scotty

 

[jt]

Some heifers are designed for breeding and some heifers are designed for feeding. My experience has been that if the heifer is small and is carrying some poor traits, it's probably designed for feeding.

Agree 100%. Sometimes in the genetic world two rights can make a wrong. Only exception might be if you could attribute poor growth, etc. to a management issue or a specific cause. For example, last year we had a 16 yr old with a heifer calf. Mama has raised dynamite calves for the last 5 years. This year she developed mastitis and the heifer was shorted at the dinner table. She started out pretty poor. By the time we weaned though, she had made some dramatic gains, but still short of the average by about 125 lbs . Decided to keep her back cause I really like the breeding and she's got a nice conformation. Her yearling weight will put her about average I'm guessing. Could be we got lucky.

i think this is a better example of what i was really trying to ask... take an old cow that raises a poor last calf... many times they dont catch up... i guess strictly from a genetic standpoint she should be equal to any full sister born earlier that grew off to potential..

jt

 

[dun]

For instance. Our old Granny alwasy raised a top calf. We bred her to the same bull two years in a row. The first year the calf was the 2nd heaviest and went to the feedlot and really grew. The next year, same bull, same cow, pretty much the same conditions since all of the other calves did well. That guy was alwasy scrawny, went to the feedlot and only did in the neighborhood of 1.7 adg. I figured tired eggs. This year her calf at 2 days is already a dandy and growing well. A poor genetic nick can I suppose produce an exceptional breeding animal, but they won;t do it at our farm.

dun

 

[Farmhand]

Right now have a cow that is fine in all ways except she throws small calves that don't grow. Well, I'm a softy and convinced hubby that the 1st one was just a fluke and not to get rid of her. This years calf is even smaller! Cutest little heifer calf but dinky! No way hubby is letting me keep the cow this time. This is one time we did get burned buying at the salebarn. Won't happen to anyone else though. We sell all cows for slaughter only. Now we have the expense of trying to finish out two calves that will probably never catch up. Not to mention all the expense we put into the cow to get those two calves that will not be beneficial to us. Seems like if a cow or bull is showing a poor trait, that trait will be dominant and get passed on. Cull for any poor traits.

 

[dun]

We had one that we gave three trys. I alwasy made excuses for her. But when her htird calf weaned the same weight as the previous two she grew wheels. Didn't even breed her back, sent her to the kill pen. But of the two calves I kept track of, at 14 months they grew into monsters, FS 7 at least and really put on the meat. But that isn;t the market I'm supplying.

dun