From one part of cattle to the other

[IluvABbeef]

I'm just wondering...I know this is a broad question, but what are your thoughts on switching from buying/selling stocker calves to having a cow-calf herd?

I just want the facts, good and bad, that's all.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

i like seeing the calf crop , each year looking foward too better replacemant heifer's.. alway's improving "are trying to anyway"

 

[backhoeboogie]

Times are changing. Rapidly. 3 weights are bringing less per pound than 7 weights at the sale barn or just as much. It sure makes you look at things in a different perspective.

 

[nap]

I think having the flexibility to do each is advantageous. If you have the pasture, bringing in stockers in the early spring and selling them in the fall before hay feeding seems to make some sense. There is no point in wasting pasture if instead you use it to grow stockers. My main concern would be getting healthy animals from a safe source because you sure don't want to put your cow-calf operation in jeopardy.

 

[WhirlingDRanch]

Thanks IluvABbeef for this posting because I was about to post the same type of question.

I also had a question about cow calf pairs, at what age would you typically sell the calf's, as weanlings or a few months after weaning, because I know you guys wean them for about 60 days and then run them back with the rest of the herd but was wondering when do you actually sell the weanlings?

The reason why I'm asking these questions is because I simply don't know many of the terms used and also I'm in the middle of purchasing 320 acres and was wondering what to start off with, my gut feeling tells me to go with 40-50 cow calf pairs, so when and where would be the best place to purchase a nice healthy herd and is there any particular time of the year I should purchase them, also what can one realistically be prepared to pay for nice healthy cow calf pairs?

Maybe you guys would start off differentley, but if you were starting off from scratch with 320 acres what direction would you go?

Thank you!

PS - here is a link to 17 posts on the subject of Cow Calf vs Stocker
http://cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=48467&p=549833&hilit=stocker#p549833

 

[bandit80]

A lot more work. :lol2:

There are certain things I can't put a value on when it comes to a cow/calf operation, and others I can. Both good and bad. Running stockers on grass through the summer is a whole lot "easier" than keeping cows year round and calving them out.

To me, I get much more pleasure out of raising a calf from the AI syringe all the way until that heifer calf has a calf as a 2 year old on my farm, or that bull gets sold to the buyer.

You can sure buy undervalued cattle and sell overvalued cattle a lot easier with stockers, whereas cow/calf you just kind of take what the market gives you sometimes.

 

[IluvABbeef]

Thanks IluvABbeef for this posting because I was about to post the same type of question.

I also had a question about cow calf pairs, at what age would you typically sell the calf's, as weanlings or a few months after weaning, because I know you guys wean them for about 60 days and then run them back with the rest of the herd but was wondering when do you actually sell the weanlings?

The reason why I'm asking these questions is because I simply don't know many of the terms used and also I'm in the middle of purchasing 320 acres and was wondering what to start off with, my gut feeling tells me to go with 40-50 cow calf pairs, so when and where would be the best place to purchase a nice healthy herd and is there any particular time of the year I should purchase them, also what can one realistically be prepared to pay for nice healthy cow calf pairs?

Maybe you guys would start off differentley, but if you were starting off from scratch with 320 acres what direction would you go?

Thank you!

PS - here is a link to 17 posts on the subject of Cow Calf vs Stocker
http://cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=48467&p=549833&hilit=stocker#p549833

Actually whirlingD that's where I got the idea of asking this from; from that link you posted.

It depends on what you want to do with them. I've heard tell of producers not selling the calves until they were large enough to be accepted into feedlots (at 800-900 lbs). Others sell them when the calves reach 500 to 600 lbs @ 5 to 6 months of age, with out further ado. And if your starting from scratch, I'd start with less than that...maybe 10 or 20 pairs.

As to the rest of you that answered my question, thanks for your responses...Isn't it hard to choose what to go with because there are so many variables coming into play when choosing whether to go into cow-calf or stocker? I find it a little nuts and confusing...

 

[Aaron]

Karin,

I thought that in the years ago, you guys bought in the fall and sold the following fall, correct? Or did you just carry calves for about 6 months at a time?

From my perspective, cow/calf production with retained ownership of calves until yearling is the most profitable sector of the industry right now. Your right, Karin, about the 800-900 lbs mark. 750 to 850 lbs. is our "sweet spot" for nabbing top dollar at the auction mart. Above and below that the price differential can be steep. Neighbour down the road grasses 200 stockers (buys in fall and sells following fall) and he made about $80-100 a head profit 3 years ago. Fast forward to today and I am guessing its more like $50 a head.

Cow/calf is more work, but has more profit as well and allows for more leeway in the form of market timing, as long as you are willing to take punches and have a sharp pencil. I don't know how April to September grassers would work out profit wise. Although your costs are low, your margin can be tight as well...depending on cattle type, gain ability, sickness, death and pasture quality.

The thing I hate most about grass stockers is that your fences have to be top notch....or you end up being tired and having lots of angry neighbours. :cowboy:

 

[SRBeef]

A lot more work. :lol2:

There are certain things I can't put a value on when it comes to a cow/calf operation, and others I can. Both good and bad. Running stockers on grass through the summer is a whole lot "easier" than keeping cows year round and calving them out.

To me, I get much more pleasure out of raising a calf from the AI syringe all the way until that heifer calf has a calf as a 2 year old on my farm, or that bull gets sold to the buyer.

You can sure buy undervalued cattle and sell overvalued cattle a lot easier with stockers, whereas cow/calf you just kind of take what the market gives you sometimes.

I think we really get into trouble when we "take what the market gives you" That could mean taking a loss on each head sold.

Reminds me of the old joke about asking a farmer what he would do if he won the lottery? His answer: "I'd farm till it was all gone"

on the 320 acres...I think we need to decide if we are going to farm/ranch as a hobby or as a business. There's nothing wrong with doing it as a hobby as long as you do it intentionally and have enough cash to keep going.

For most of us it needs to be a business which means income must at least cover expenses or pretty soon we aren't going to be able to do it any more.

320 acres is enough in many areas to do a little of both. If you like doing cow/calf do that - but why not keep the option of feeding them as stockers too if the market does not give you a reasonable (= covers your expenses) price for the calves. Keep some flexibility so you have an alternative to just "taking what the market will give you". jmho.

By the way there is a very interesting discussion of the cattle market potential here:

http://www.iptv.org/mtom/market_plus.cfm?showNumber=3351

You can read the transcript or click on "listen now". I really enjoy Walt Hackney's comments on cattle. You can also go back to the market analysis page if you want to hear more although that was mostly on grains this week.

 

[IluvABbeef]

Aaron, yes we did the first, bought in the fall and sold in the fall. We also had to deal with an un-uniform herd of cattle too, whereas with most cow-calf producers you'd be selling a more uniform crop of calves.

Now this is where the delimma comes in: when I would do stockers, I'd be buying twice as many calves as those born in a cow-calf herd. Thus when the steers are in their prime to be finished and sold off of the backgrounding farm, it's plausable that I'd get more money from the herd of once-boughten feeders, than the calves born on-farm. But on the other hand, I can't really pay for having a bunch of cows spit out some good calves that I chose the genetics of, of both the dams and the sires, if you think about it, can I? I can buy the foundation cows and the bull or the frozen semen, but like someone said you can't pay for having one or more of my best heifers grow up and have a calf of her own, and keep growing into a good cow that raises a good calf, right?

And then of course all the financial stuff that comes into play that you mentioned SRBeef, and others, to make a profitable cow herd. Sure its more work, the cow-calf thing I mean, but really I found raising stockers kinda boring ;-) ...no looking forward to new calves, no real fun of who gets shipped and who stays, etc.

This is a neat subject, I'm glad I brought it up.

And thanks again for your comments.

PS: thanks for the link SRB, it was an interesting read.

 

[Aaron]

Aaron, yes we did the first, bought in the fall and sold in the fall. We also had to deal with an un-uniform herd of cattle too, whereas with most cow-calf producers you'd be selling a more uniform crop of calves.

I am teetering on this one...yes and no. Yes if you go to a sale yard and just pick up 200 calves that are in the 400-450 weight range. No if you go to 1/2 a dozen sale yards and pick up 200 calves of similar weight, frame, flesh and colour.

when I would do stockers, I'd be buying twice as many calves as those born in a cow-calf herd. Thus when the steers are in their prime to be finished and sold off of the backgrounding farm, it's plausable that I'd get more money from the herd of once-boughten feeders, than the calves born on-farm. But on the other hand, I can't really pay for having a bunch of cows spit out some good calves that I chose the genetics of, of both the dams and the sires, if you think about it, can I? I can buy the foundation cows and the bull or the frozen semen, but like someone said you can't pay for having one or more of my best heifers grow up and have a calf of her own, and keep growing into a good cow that raises a good calf, right?

I was talking to a couple of friends who run a 170 head cowherd about this very subject. Our conclusion was even if we both sold our cowherds and ran 300 and 700 grassers, respectively, we still would be short on our income, compared to what we an make on our own calves. (Based on current day scenario with $50 bought-grasser margin and $400 own-yearling margin). The average cow/calf guy has about 16 months of time to sell his weaned calves. The average stocker has at most, 12 months to sell his stockers. More likely figures are 12 and 8 months, but you get the picture. Based on margins alone, the cow/calf guy can absorb losses much easier than the stocker (based on time and cash flow). Say something freakish like lightning hit a fence. Stocker on one side loses 20 steers and the cow/calf guy on the other side loses 3 cows and 5 calves. It is basically impossible for a stocker to recoup from a loss like that, whereas the cow/calf guy is able to because while he does have something invested in them, it likely isn't someone else's money.
You mention "foundation cows". Unless your looking to go purebred, "foundation" is too strong a word. Commercial cattlemen/women are just looking for a profitable cow. Doesn't have to be anything fantastic, as long as that cow can produce a calf that is comparable to the rest of the calves, she is doing well. Buy 20 F1 bred heifers bred terminal from a single operation and that is your best foundation. :cowboy:

 

[IluvABbeef]

Well, thanks for that insight Aaron.

So I guess I could say from what I've learned on here that

a) stockers are less flexible than cow-calf in most cases
b) the profit margin difference between stockers and cow-calf leans more towards cow-calf
c) stocker operation is a higher risk operation than cow-calf
d) there are quicker returns for stockers than cow-calf
e) lower labour requirements favour stockers than cow-calf and possibly less capital (investment in buildings and equipment)
f) a piece of land can hold twice as many stockers as that of cows and calves.

What about feed? I remember that when we had stockers Dad told me that stockers typically take in less feed than cows do...well yeah because they're smaller in weight and size...but higher-quality feed like grain silage is more favourable to stockers than cow-calf, right? Or am I opening up a different discussion here?

I'll let this topic go when I've run out of questions to ask. ;-)

 

[Aaron]

All your points are on the money. Except possibly f) is which case it depends if your talking about carrying over feeders or just grassing. Carrying over you could carry about twice the number of cows....grassing would allow about 6 times the numbers..if you pastured the hayland.

The amount of feed between stockers and cows is very big. For stockers, I would say our stockers eat about 20-30 lbs a day, with 1 lb. being a mixed grain ration and the rest being free choice mixed hay. Our cows, on the other hand eat more like 40-60 lbs. per head per day of strictly free choice hay. This is just estimations, I should really check to see how close I am. Regardless, the consumption between the two is significant.

High quality feed to cows is a waste. High-quality feed to stockers is okay, but try to limit it to save some profit. We fed 14 steers one year on free choice second crop grass and alfalfa hay and about 5 lbs. of mixed grain ration per head per day. We sold them at between 750 and 840 lbs, averaging $1.30/lb in April 2003. Note the date...we sold just in time before BSE hit. That was the best money we made at cattle ever! Since then, we have been feeding free choice first crop mixed hay and 1 lb. of mixed grain per head per day to our feeders. This spring, we averaged .91/lb. on 10, 740-810 lbs. steers. Now it's hard to compare the money between the years, but this can be said..we topped the market for Hereford yearlings at both sales. So if we were in 2003 and topped the market with our 2008 steers, how much money would we have saved by limiting our feeding of high-quality forages? I would say at least $100 a head. In 2003, the steers had shinier coats and a little better flesh on them than the 2008 steers, but frame and weight wise, weren't much better. Maybe chock it up to better genetics or what have you, but my belief is that, through the wintering period, feed stockers the absolute minimum required to accumulate frame size. If they don't have frame, they can't gain weight rapidly in any fashion, through the feedlot or on grass. Put the frame on them through the winter, and either sell them with no more than a 1/2" of cover on them in the spring or go to grass with them, which is your cheapest gain of all. For us, the difference between the risks involved in pasturing and the profit gained over the summer weight gains isn't big enough to warrant us keeping yearlings past late-April.

 

[IluvABbeef]

I was reading in the Beef Science book that when you have stockers you can adjust to "feed supplies and economic outlook, thus the number of stockers purchased each year may be altered accordingly." But really its hard to judge how many head to get each year because what if the "economic outlook" suddenly went downhill when you were in the middle of feeding up the stockers, such as the BSE crisis, (here I'm kinda repeating what you said) and not only that, what if a drought suddenly came up unexpectedly, right when you thought you were gonna have a good growing year?

So there's just all sorts of things to consider when purchasing either stockers or cows.

Thanks for your replies Aaron.

 

[Brandonm22]

I just don't know about this one:

"c) stocker operation is a higher risk operation than cow-calf"

Growing big stockers ARE kind of dull; BUT you don't have to worry about a late blizzard (I don't have to worry about blizzards at all...but you are WAAAAYY up north) killing your stockers. Baby calves on the other hand, come with lots of perils including freezing too death. Dittoe with dogs, coyotes, WOLVES. Predator losses can be a big problem with the calves. Then there is conception rate. I can pencil in an 88% or 91% conception rate; but in the real world bulls shoot blanks, AI operators flub up, cows don't cycle, reproductive diseases destroy fetuses, cows lose calves at birth. And then you still suffer at the whims of the market.

 

[Aaron]

I just don't know about this one:

"c) stocker operation is a higher risk operation than cow-calf"

Growing big stockers ARE kind of dull; BUT you don't have to worry about a late blizzard (I don't have to worry about blizzards at all...but you are WAAAAYY up north) killing your stockers. Baby calves on the other hand, come with lots of perils including freezing too death. Dittoe with dogs, coyotes, WOLVES. Predator losses can be a big problem with the calves. Then there is conception rate. I can pencil in an 88% or 91% conception rate; but in the real world bulls shoot blanks, AI operators flub up, cows don't cycle, reproductive diseases destroy fetuses, cows lose calves at birth. And then you still suffer at the whims of the market.

Late blizzard is no problem. This year we did have a wicked one that dropped a foot of heavy wet snow on April 26, middle of the calving season. We knew it was coming and gave the cows and calves plenty of straw. No calves got sick, none died. Most people around here are calving April and May, some even later, so freezing to death is out. Dogs are rare...and if found chasing cattle, owner is contacted to let him know...every one to this date has been taken out by the owner and shot. Coyotes, wolves and bears can be given rather lucrative compensations, so losing an animal (provided you find the carcass) does not hurt your bottom line. Our conception rate last year was 100%. Is always above 95%. Lost one calf at birth. You still do suffer the whims of the market, but have a much longer time period and options to work with. :cowboy:

 

[novatech]

I'm just wondering...I know this is a broad question, but what are your thoughts on switching from buying/selling stocker calves to having a cow-calf herd?

I just want the facts, good and bad, that's all.

Try looking at this with a different perspective. Rather than looking at this as cow calf, or stocker program try to see it as a grass management/marketing situation. At present heavy weights are bringing more money so to get the most from you operation you need to carry the calves after weaning and put more weight on them (stockers). To do this you need to cut down the size of your cow calf herd.
If light weights were bringing more then you would sell at weaning and thus stock with more cow calf pairs.
A reduction in the normal number of cows from what a given property can hold will lend you the flexibility to manage the available forage to it's maximum. You can fill in when there is extra forage with either stockers or bred cows, depending on what is the most advantageous for the current market. The added benefit is that you are not overstocked during hard times when forage is not as available.
You said you want the facts. Here it is, no matter what you want to call yourself ( to quote caustic ) You are a grass farmer first. Cattle are the machines that turn it into dollars. Your are the manager of the grass and the one that picks the best machines to turn it into dollars, wither it be stockers, cows or a combination.
With all that being said if you don,t care about the dollars then a cow calf is more enjoyable (for me).

 

[dun]

Novatech: I agree with the whole premis but the problem is we're working today with what will be a reality tomorrow. My clairvoyance skills are lacking so I can;t tell when I breed a cow in the spring what the market will be 15 months later when I wean that calf. If you decie to winter over your weaned calves and sell them as heavys in the wpring, how bad of a beating will you take if the market turns around and the light weights are what is paying the money. We can only make decisions based on what is happening now and what we "think" will be happening later. But if it was easy, everyone would be doing it and making money.

 

[novatech]

Well I thought it sounded good until you throw in your 2 cents.
Wouldn't carrying over calves after weaning just be a 3 month risk on the market?
Buying bred cows would definitely extend the risk, but no more than the cows you already have? Or they could be cows with a calf on their side. What ever fits your best guess.
I have gone the stocker route and broke dead even (if you don't count my labor). Its like playing the commodities market. If I had sold them a week earlier I would have made money.
I view stockers as being raised on available forage not hay.

 

[angie1]

Well I thought it sounded good until you throw in your 2 cents.

He does that to me all the time......... :roll: