From one part of cattle to the other

[dun]

Well I thought it sounded good until you throw in your 2 cents.
Wouldn't carrying over calves after weaning just be a 3 month risk on the market?
Buying bred cows would definitely extend the risk, but no more than the cows you already have? Or they could be cows with a calf on their side. What ever fits your best guess.
I have gone the stocker route and broke dead even (if you don't count my labor). Its like playing the commodities market. If I had sold them a week earlier I would have made money.
I view stockers as being raised on available forage not hay.

Just throwing in a dose of reality. And I'm actually an optimist! We'll be weaning next month and the spring market doesn;t get going until march april so it's more then 3 months. But, a lot depends on how heavy the calves wean, how bad the winter is, how mcuh strength there really is in the grass. This year we're debating holding all of the steers and market heifers over on grass till spring and hoping for the best. Of the breeding quality heifers we'll keep a couple and the others will be sold (tentatively) at the spring Red Angus sale as Pro-cow commercial yearling heifers.

 

[IluvABbeef]

I just don't know about this one:

"c) stocker operation is a higher risk operation than cow-calf"

Growing big stockers ARE kind of dull; BUT you don't have to worry about a late blizzard (I don't have to worry about blizzards at all...but you are WAAAAYY up north) killing your stockers. Baby calves on the other hand, come with lots of perils including freezing too death. Dittoe with dogs, coyotes, WOLVES. Predator losses can be a big problem with the calves. Then there is conception rate. I can pencil in an 88% or 91% conception rate; but in the real world bulls shoot blanks, AI operators flub up, cows don't cycle, reproductive diseases destroy fetuses, cows lose calves at birth. And then you still suffer at the whims of the market.

Here's where I got that "higher risk operation" from:

"[A stocker program] is a high risk venture. High risk results from seasonal and yearly price fluctuations in feeder cattle, and the fact that total gains are not large in proportion to the weight purchased. Also, stocker operators who rely on winter wheat or oat pastures or summer grazing my have to purchase cattle when the price is high and sell them when the market is flooded with similar cattle. Moreover, lack or rain may make for small gains and high costs." (from the Beef Cattle Science book)

So, I guess what I was trying to say with the stocker operation being higher risk than cow-calf is mostly from the standpoint of the market, than from the dangers of Mother Nature. They also forgot to mention that, and I know this was mentioned previously on this thread somewhere, that the loss of one or two stockers can set a stocker operator back a bit because of the hope that he'd sell 100% of the herd that he originally purchased. But of course losing a young calf or a cow also sets a producer back too, one way or another.

 

[IluvABbeef]

I'm just wondering...I know this is a broad question, but what are your thoughts on switching from buying/selling stocker calves to having a cow-calf herd?

I just want the facts, good and bad, that's all.

Try looking at this with a different perspective. Rather than looking at this as cow calf, or stocker program try to see it as a grass management/marketing situation. At present heavy weights are bringing more money so to get the most from you operation you need to carry the calves after weaning and put more weight on them (stockers). To do this you need to cut down the size of your cow calf herd.
If light weights were bringing more then you would sell at weaning and thus stock with more cow calf pairs.
A reduction in the normal number of cows from what a given property can hold will lend you the flexibility to manage the available forage to it's maximum. You can fill in when there is extra forage with either stockers or bred cows, depending on what is the most advantageous for the current market. The added benefit is that you are not overstocked during hard times when forage is not as available.
You said you want the facts. Here it is, no matter what you want to call yourself ( to quote caustic ) You are a grass farmer first. Cattle are the machines that turn it into dollars. Your are the manager of the grass and the one that picks the best machines to turn it into dollars, wither it be stockers, cows or a combination.
With all that being said if you don,t care about the dollars then a cow calf is more enjoyable (for me).

Novatech: I agree with the whole premis but the problem is we're working today with what will be a reality tomorrow. My clairvoyance skills are lacking so I can;t tell when I breed a cow in the spring what the market will be 15 months later when I wean that calf. If you decie to winter over your weaned calves and sell them as heavys in the wpring, how bad of a beating will you take if the market turns around and the light weights are what is paying the money. We can only make decisions based on what is happening now and what we "think" will be happening later. But if it was easy, everyone would be doing it and making money.

That's just it, you two, anything a person tries out with cattle is taking a risk, no matter what you do.

That's where flexibility comes in to play. A body has to be flexible as to what kind of curveball the market's gonna throw your way, what kind of grass you're gonna get that coming year, what kind of sickness that you might have to battle that overtakes your herd or one or a few animals, I could go on.

Thanks again everybody for your 2 cents on this.

 

[Brandonm22]

I just don't know about this one:

"c) stocker operation is a higher risk operation than cow-calf"

Growing big stockers ARE kind of dull; BUT you don't have to worry about a late blizzard (I don't have to worry about blizzards at all...but you are WAAAAYY up north) killing your stockers. Baby calves on the other hand, come with lots of perils including freezing too death. Dittoe with dogs, coyotes, WOLVES. Predator losses can be a big problem with the calves. Then there is conception rate. I can pencil in an 88% or 91% conception rate; but in the real world bulls shoot blanks, AI operators flub up, cows don't cycle, reproductive diseases destroy fetuses, cows lose calves at birth. And then you still suffer at the whims of the market.

Late blizzard is no problem. This year we did have a wicked one that dropped a foot of heavy wet snow on April 26, middle of the calving season. We knew it was coming and gave the cows and calves plenty of straw. No calves got sick, none died. Most people around here are calving April and May, some even later, so freezing to death is out. Dogs are rare...and if found chasing cattle, owner is contacted to let him know...every one to this date has been taken out by the owner and shot. Coyotes, wolves and bears can be given rather lucrative compensations, so losing an animal (provided you find the carcass) does not hurt your bottom line. Our conception rate last year was 100%. Is always above 95%. Lost one calf at birth. You still do suffer the whims of the market, but have a much longer time period and options to work with. :cowboy:

I have seen ONE blizzard (April 1993) up close and we really have not seen a snowfall since so I will take your word on it; but over the course of years Cattletoday and the other trade mags will report that so many calves were lost to late blizzards in Montana, the Dakotas, Colorado, Nebraska, etc. As for conception rate, I can not ever recall a year where we did not find ONE open cow (usually more) in the fall preg checks and we usually lost a calf (or more) at birth, too scours, drowned in a sinkhole, lightning, or poached (they never kill a bad one). We lost 22 whiteface cows and calves too dogs in ONE night in 1977 (and then got on television for what was done to the neighbors' dogs in response). 1988 was a really bad year for pulling calves. 2002 (BVD type II) pretty much sucked too. Somebody poisoned seven mama cows on July 2, 2003. All I am saying is that not every year is rounding up your calves and counting your money.

 

[Aaron]

I just don't know about this one:

"c) stocker operation is a higher risk operation than cow-calf"

Growing big stockers ARE kind of dull; BUT you don't have to worry about a late blizzard (I don't have to worry about blizzards at all...but you are WAAAAYY up north) killing your stockers. Baby calves on the other hand, come with lots of perils including freezing too death. Dittoe with dogs, coyotes, WOLVES. Predator losses can be a big problem with the calves. Then there is conception rate. I can pencil in an 88% or 91% conception rate; but in the real world bulls shoot blanks, AI operators flub up, cows don't cycle, reproductive diseases destroy fetuses, cows lose calves at birth. And then you still suffer at the whims of the market.

Late blizzard is no problem. This year we did have a wicked one that dropped a foot of heavy wet snow on April 26, middle of the calving season. We knew it was coming and gave the cows and calves plenty of straw. No calves got sick, none died. Most people around here are calving April and May, some even later, so freezing to death is out. Dogs are rare...and if found chasing cattle, owner is contacted to let him know...every one to this date has been taken out by the owner and shot. Coyotes, wolves and bears can be given rather lucrative compensations, so losing an animal (provided you find the carcass) does not hurt your bottom line. Our conception rate last year was 100%. Is always above 95%. Lost one calf at birth. You still do suffer the whims of the market, but have a much longer time period and options to work with. :cowboy:

I have seen ONE blizzard (April 1993) up close and we really have not seen a snowfall since so I will take your word on it; but over the course of years Cattletoday and the other trade mags will report that so many calves were lost to late blizzards in Montana, the Dakotas, Colorado, Nebraska, etc. As for conception rate, I can not ever recall a year where we did not find ONE open cow (usually more) in the fall preg checks and we usually lost a calf (or more) at birth, too scours, drowned in a sinkhole, lightning, or poached (they never kill a bad one). We lost 22 whiteface cows and calves too dogs in ONE night in 1977 (and then got on television for what was done to the neighbors' dogs in response). 1988 was a really bad year for pulling calves. 2002 (BVD type II) pretty much sucked too. Somebody poisoned seven mama cows on July 2, 2003. All I am saying is that not every year is rounding up your calves and counting your money.

We had a nasty blizzard (over a foot in 12 hours) in April of 96 or 97. Again, we knew it was coming and bedded things down and brought the cows up to the barn and other buildings. Never lost a calf, amazingly. Jeez Louis, you haven't had very good luck over the years. Our neighours are trying to sell their farm. 320 acres, over 1/2 cleared, with beautiful house and good barn and other buildings. $335,000. You come buy it and you'll have some of the best neighbours in the world, I guarantee. :cowboy: :cboy: