Thankfully I wasn't alive when cattle were as big as horses, but I have been around long enough and I've heard enough reg. producers tell me that they are using this and that bull to reduce frame size because their herd just got too big there in the 80's. There's no doubt in my mind most people look back and think they had to have been crazy. But I wonder if 20 or 30 years from now we will be doing the same thing in regards to lowering frame size. In all the judging camps I've been to I've always been taught that frame 5, 6, and 7 is a good range for the modern beef cow. For me I think 5 and 6 is my ideal range, but that doesn't mean I'll get rid of a frame 6.1-7.0 cow just because she's a little bigger. I think some people are looking too much into the frame score thing. It's just one of the many heritable traits that a cow has. Alot of people talk about single trait selection, and I hope they realize JUST selecting for lower frame score can be an example of that.
frame score vs paying the bills
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Brandonm22
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CPL":kwxgp96f said:
I remember when Angus ran a successful ad campaign attacking elephant sized cattle.....now the heaviest cattle in the country often ARE Angus. This is a debate that dates back to ~1962 and probably long before then. I don't think it has been satisfied too anybody's satisfaction. "Most" people NOW are convinced that a frame 1, 2 or less feeder calf is too small. The feedlots will not buy them. And "most" people NOW are convinced that the 8, 9, 0r 10 frame mama cow (if she has any kind of depth, length, and muscle) is waaayyy too heavy and requires too much maintenance needs to be highly productive for a long period of time. The wide range of cattle in between a 3 and a 7 is where the debate is for now and I suspect that we will keep debating this for the forseeable future. Right now.....I think the pendulum is swinging toward the smaller more efficient cows. At the Cattlemen's meetings this spring and winter the talk was all about cutting fertilizer expense, cutting diesal expense, cutting feed and hay expense. I don't see how you do all of that (and still produce something) without going towards a more efficient, smaller moma cow.......but how does that affect the feedlots and the packers??? and if it does.....what can they do about it???
Northern Rancher
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Middle of the road keeps you going ahead not in the ditch. Half the damned frame chase is the purebred industry trying to pull a new rabbit out of the hat to merchandise to the commercial business. As for commercial breeders not knowing what they want-most forgot more than most purebred guy knows. The old analogy about the best way to ruin a good commercial rancher is to get him five papered cows is often true. You know I've never had to use a frame decreaser or a frame improver we just keep running the same old kind of british x cows we always did-they calve-they grade-they don't eat you out of house and home.
Northern Rancher":3rxn4w3u said:
There are smart and ignorant on both sides of the fence. The fact of the matter is the customer is always right regardless of who knows more. I had a commercial guy come look at a 5.5 frame 2 yo bull. I think he's a fantastic bull - used him for cleanup on my herd last year. He had his checkbook literally in his hand till he saw the bull and said he just wasn't big enough - "nice bull" he said "good and thick" but just not big enough. If the bull had been a 6 or 6.5 he'd be at his place right now instead of mine.
Red Bull Breeder
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The most of people buying your bulls are selling calves by the pound. More pounds more money.
Northern Rancher
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That air under the belly has never weighed up really well for me must be the clear northern air. We don't really need frame two's or frame 8 and tens but the average of them sure works-always has and probably always will. It takes several years to move a cowherd's AVERAGE size even one frame score so it's not a thing that should be constantly tinkered with. I've crossed an Arab stud on my Belgian draft horses and got something that resembled a quarter horse-maybe I should of just crossed two quarter horses.
Red Bull Breeder":q51masxe said:
Calves out of fourteen moderate cows weigh more pounds than calves out often big cows that consume the same amount of forage. However, the first generation, there will be less pounds as the farmer has bred big cows to a moderate bull. So the Producer that has suddenly become aware of the moderate frame issue may either take this initial loss, or breed the biggest cows to a terminal sire, and buy moderate cows for the future.
The question is only whom we should choose to hang the bell around the cats neck!
( the author is here referring to a danish fable in which the rats decide that it be best if the cat had a bell hanging from a collar so it could be heard from some distance)
ALACOWMAN
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I just need enough space, so the calf dont have to lay on its back too nurseNorthern Rancher":37u4dkuv said:
Brandonm22
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ANAZAZI":13ocdp7d said:
I agree. Kit Pharo sells semen on frame 2 and even frame 00 Lowline bulls in order to bring frame down fast. I think if folks would do the math they would be better off breeding all of their existing large frame cows to a terminal bull sell all of those big heifers and go out and buy the moderate framed replacements that they want.
Just got back from the local feedlot that buys my calves. The feedlot manager there showed me some of my moderate calves compared to much taller calves that went onto feed the same day. Mine was loaded out today and the others are still quite a way from being finished.
With the higher cost of grain and concentrates, especially the canola oilcake that they used as a proteien supplement, they adapted their ration quite a bit and after a 60 day trial they did the math and on a silage based ration with minimal concentrates the shorter animals outgained the taller ones bu so much that they've quit buying any late maturing animals. The cost of gain was significantly lower with the cheaper ration and the right kind of feeder calf than with the taller calves with the more expensive traditional type ration. The taller calves outgained the shorter calves slightly on the hot ration, but at a higher cost.
They did the math as gain per unit cost and the difference in gain was considerable in the favour of the earlier maturing animals
With the higher cost of grain and concentrates, especially the canola oilcake that they used as a proteien supplement, they adapted their ration quite a bit and after a 60 day trial they did the math and on a silage based ration with minimal concentrates the shorter animals outgained the taller ones bu so much that they've quit buying any late maturing animals. The cost of gain was significantly lower with the cheaper ration and the right kind of feeder calf than with the taller calves with the more expensive traditional type ration. The taller calves outgained the shorter calves slightly on the hot ration, but at a higher cost.
They did the math as gain per unit cost and the difference in gain was considerable in the favour of the earlier maturing animals
Third Row
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Knersie, nobody is debating that.
However, that increased profit typically doesn't trickle down to the commercial guy selling his calves at 400-600lbs.
However, that increased profit typically doesn't trickle down to the commercial guy selling his calves at 400-600lbs.
Third Row":2ft32z6f said:
It probably doesn't if a producer is just selling his calves at the sale barn but if he can find a feeder to buy them who knows they are more efficient there is probably a premium over the sale barn price available.
As to the original question I think its a natural instinict for people the favor a larger animal over a smaller one. I bet if you took the top end off your sale bulls (the frame score 7s)so nobdy had them to compare them to you wouldn't see much difference in the sales.
Third Row":3mhcy3xg said:
I understand that in most cases it won't be of much benefit to the commercial guy unless he can build a reputation for himself with a buyer.
What I don't understand why you would need a frame 7 or 7+ bull if you're going to sell calves weighing 400-600lbs, you could easily do that with a frame 3 bull. (not that I'm saying that is what the industry needs, but just for arguments sake)
Red Bull Breeder
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When a bull buyer walks up to a pen of bulls the first thing they see is the bigger bulls they think growth. They sell at the sale barn bigger calves = more money in there pocket. If thats what they think i will gladly sell them a larger framed bull.I will not be the one to tell them the air under the taller bulls belly dosen't weight anything.
Red Bull Breeder":2m3f237n said:
EXACTLY!!!!
Once again, I'm left on the farm with several frame 5.5 bulls that are out and out meatwagons - bulls that would be MY pick for my own commercial herd. However, they are STILL AT MY FARM while their frame 6.5 brothers are gone. A gone bull is the only bull I can economically produce.
TexasBred
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angus9259":st8yy463 said:
Do like the cow traders....put the one bull you want them to buy in a pen with 3 small bulls you don't figure they want....make him look big and stand out.....they'll buy the big one everytime. ;-)
TheBullLady
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I agree 100% red bull.. buyers seem to think 1) a bigger bull will make bigger calves and 2) they are getting more for their $$ because the bull is biggest. Doesn't make any sense, but so many cattle buyers don't know what to look for to compliment their cows, or what their end product is supposed to be! :cboy:
TheBullLady":3aqoyq9n said:
That's the most important part as far as I'm concerned. If he is a terminal bull and you aren;t going to retain ownership of the calves, a larger framed bull may be just the ticket. We retain ownership on a lot of calves, either 50% or 100% depending on the market. Retaining ownership throws a whole nuther turd in the punchbowl, as does retaining heifers. Our buyers want a large medium or small large framed calf with a high number 2 or a 1 for muscle. With our herd, 6-6.5 frame bulls work well. The smaller framed bulls give us calves that sell a bit lower because of the frame even though they're the same muscle.
Red Bull Breeder":3oq6w33r said:
Maybe gross income. Not necessarily net income. And, while I'm thinking of it, most commercial cattlemen around here have no idea if they are making money or not. Many of them also run row cropping operations and do not separate the businesses. Others just have a few head to "play around with" and have no idea of their expenses or profits (if they did, they'd get a smaller bull and buy less grain).
