For Balancer fans

[DOC HARRIS]

I've just purchased 10 very fleshy (off grass only) pure blood angus heifers. They come from a long line of AI breeding, with their sire being Gridmaker. I'm going to AI them in March and I'd like to use a Gelbvieh sire on them (Flying H Exclusive).

Do those of you who breed to produce Balancers start your angus heifers on LBW gelbviehs, or do you always breed your angus heifers to angus for their first calf???

Also, any comments on my plan would be greatly appreciated, positive or negative. I need all the help I can get.

My partner just sold a Gelbvieh bull that we had to pull every calf on first calf heifers for 2 yrs. None of those calves weighed over 85lbs. The bull only weighed 1880 at the sale at 3yrs of age. Problem was big head short neck and big shoulders. I'm not sure EPD's always tell the whole story. Definately not in this case.

He threw great calves but the price in paraylized heifers and cows was pretty high.

-3waycross-No one, I repeat, NO ONE who understands the necessary relationship between Genotype and Phenotype would EVER suggest that EPD's "...tell the whole story." :roll: It is NOT a "button-punching" business. It involves multi-selection processes, (certainly not single-selection), astute observation, and carefull attention to mating details.

DOC HARRIS

 

[bufordall]

Go to website http://www.bufordalliance.com this bull is out of Bennet Bonus on top with Echo and the well known 92C cow of J-Bob farms. He has been bred to Angus, Gelbvieh and Charlois. There has never been a calf pulled. He has had an average of 75 lb birthweight with an average of 656 weaning. Give him a try. Next Generation Genetics carries his semen.

 

[3waycross]

I've just purchased 10 very fleshy (off grass only) pure blood angus heifers. They come from a long line of AI breeding, with their sire being Gridmaker. I'm going to AI them in March and I'd like to use a Gelbvieh sire on them (Flying H Exclusive).

Do those of you who breed to produce Balancers start your angus heifers on LBW gelbviehs, or do you always breed your angus heifers to angus for their first calf???

Also, any comments on my plan would be greatly appreciated, positive or negative. I need all the help I can get.

My partner just sold a Gelbvieh bull that we had to pull every calf on first calf heifers for 2 yrs. None of those calves weighed over 85lbs. The bull only weighed 1880 at the sale at 3yrs of age. Problem was big head short neck and big shoulders. I'm not sure EPD's always tell the whole story. Definately not in this case.

He threw great calves but the price in paraylized heifers and cows was pretty high.

-3waycross-No one, I repeat, NO ONE who understands the necessary relationship between Genotype and Phenotype would EVER suggest that EPD's "...tell the whole story." :roll: It is NOT a "button-punching" business. It involves multi-selection processes, (certainly not single-selection), astute observation, and carefull attention to mating details.

DOC HARRIS

Isn't that kinda what I said? I didn't pick the bull in question. His problem was that everything hit the birth canal at the same time. So a 75lb calf birthed like a 100lb calf.

On a serious note I have become a fan of what the Gelbvieh breed brings to the table for growth, and fertility. I will however be very careful in the future re. confirmation.

Another point I would like Doc to address is. Wouldn't you want or need better numbers from a Gelbvieh than an Angus, because of the baseline being higher in the Gelbvieh to begin with. In other words a Gelbvieh with a CE EPD going of 105 going to be a bigger problem to calve than an Angus with the same number?

 

[Frankie]

Let me throw this to you, RR, and I'll leave you alone to make your decision. We used an Angus bull named B/R New Design 036 a lot on Angus heifers. Calves generally ran in the 70-75 lb range, very few problems with calving. At an Angus sale one year we were selling a couple of 036 heifers and a gentleman came by and asked about calving ease. I told him our experience; he said 036 had been a disaster for him. They had lost heifers, pulled lots of calves and had several born dead. As we talked, he said they used 036 on a breed other than Angus. I believe heterosis reared it's ugly head there because he was one of the easiest calving bulls we ever used. On Angus. Heterosis starts in the womb. IMO, you can throw the CEM on your heifers out the window if you use another breed bull on them. I may be wrong, but it's something you might want to think about. Good luck....

 

[Brandonm2]

Let me throw this to you, RR, and I'll leave you alone to make your decision. We used an Angus bull named B/R New Design 036 a lot on Angus heifers. Calves generally ran in the 70-75 lb range, very few problems with calving. At an Angus sale one year we were selling a couple of 036 heifers and a gentleman came by and asked about calving ease. I told him our experience; he said 036 had been a disaster for him. They had lost heifers, pulled lots of calves and had several born dead. As we talked, he said they used 036 on a breed other than Angus. I believe heterosis reared it's ugly head there because he was one of the easiest calving bulls we ever used. On Angus. Heterosis starts in the womb. IMO, you can throw the CEM on your heifers out the window if you use another breed bull on them. I may be wrong, but it's something you might want to think about. Good luck....

Actually, I have always understood that there was very little heterosis effect on birth weight. Link....

http://jas.fass.org/cgi/content/abstract/37/6/1273

"The lack of a significant interaction between bull breed and cow breed indicates that heterosis is not important for these traits. Comparisons involving each two-breed cross verify this conclusion."

 

[dun]

On amrginal heifer and a marginal bull both for BW, it might not take a significant effect to cause problems. Over feeding could be another cause, but why not control what you can control, like feeding and bull selection.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I've just purchased 10 very fleshy (off grass only) pure blood angus heifers. They come from a long line of AI breeding, with their sire being Gridmaker. I'm going to AI them in March and I'd like to use a Gelbvieh sire on them (Flying H Exclusive).

Do those of you who breed to produce Balancers start your angus heifers on LBW gelbviehs, or do you always breed your angus heifers to angus for their first calf???

Also, any comments on my plan would be greatly appreciated, positive or negative. I need all the help I can get.

My partner just sold a Gelbvieh bull that we had to pull every calf on first calf heifers for 2 yrs. None of those calves weighed over 85lbs. The bull only weighed 1880 at the sale at 3yrs of age. Problem was big head short neck and big shoulders. I'm not sure EPD's always tell the whole story. Definately not in this case.

He threw great calves but the price in paraylized heifers and cows was pretty high.

-3waycross-No one, I repeat, NO ONE who understands the necessary relationship between Genotype and Phenotype would EVER suggest that EPD's "...tell the whole story." :roll: It is NOT a "button-punching" business. It involves multi-selection processes, (certainly not single-selection), astute observation, and carefull attention to mating details.

DOC HARRIS

Isn't that kinda what I said? I didn't pick the bull in question. His problem was that everything hit the birth canal at the same time. So a 75lb calf birthed like a 100lb calf.

On a serious note I have become a fan of what the Gelbvieh breed brings to the table for growth, and fertility. I will however be very careful in the future re. confirmation.

Another point I would like Doc to address is. Wouldn't you want or need better numbers from a Gelbvieh than an Angus, because of the baseline being higher in the Gelbvieh to begin with. In other words a Gelbvieh with a CE EPD going of 105 going to be a bigger problem to calve than an Angus with the same number?

3way-Yes, it is what you said. I was just adding to your thoughts.

Insofar as needing better numbers from a Gelbvieh than an Angus - the problem is being leveled out somewhat with the use of "Across the Breed" EPD's. It uses Angus as a baseline, and balances all the other breeds to that base. You can find that by going on-line and typing in "Across The Breed EPD Table" in the Search box.

DOC HARRIS

 

[Frankie]

Link to across breed EPDs:

http://www.ars.usda.gov/sp2UserFiles/Pl ... 06News.pdf

 

[smuff76]

Just to make sure I understand AB-EPD's......... so if I am breeding an angus bull to a gelbvieh cow, I could use an angus bull with a 4.7 bw epd and it would be 0 bw for a gelbvieh? So if I wanted to use a gelbvieh bull on an angus hiefer I would add 4.7 to the gelbvieh bulls bw epd? So I would need a -4.7 gelbvieh bull bw epd to reach a 0 bw?

 

[MikeC]

Wow, sounds like you did great. How much did the Angus set you back?

I personally like to breed Angus heifers to Charolais bulls for those first calves. Can't beat the hybrid vigor. And no worries, they'll have those calves walking.

Good Luck!

Holy cow, you breed your cows to Charolais for there first calf, man you must have some bigger framed more performance type females than we do here in VA.

THG

Lots of people breed Chars to heifers of all types. :roll:

 

[Rookie Rancher]

Guys, thanks for all the input.

Frankie - the across breed EPD info was very helpful.

I've also been considering another Gelbvieh bull for awhile.

http://www.bullbarn.com/gelbepd.asp?ID=44

His BW EPD averages out to below Angus average when converted. He's #2 in the breed for milk production.

What will that mean for me? Is there such a thing as too much milk? Also, I'm no good judge of "funnel butt", so take a look at him and tell me if you like him better.

 

[dun]

He's #2 in the breed for milk production.

What will that mean for me? Is there such a thing as too much milk?

If you have the forage base to support a high amount of milk there won;t be a problem. If you don;;t, too oftern those high milkers out produce their environement and won;t breed back on time. Too much milk is as much a porblem as too little, the difference is the type of negative impact it has.

 

[dun]

black so will throw red calves.

Huh?

 

[dun]

That bull is hetero black so he will throw some red calves.

That's more like it

 

[Rookie Rancher]

TN - Where are you getting your data from. I can't seem to find anywhere that says this bull is hetero or homo, just black. I'm finding a frame score of 5.8. If you know where to get more recent data, I'd love to see where. No sense in me using old inaccurate numbers.

 

[Rookie Rancher]

My thinking was smaller medium framed big milkers would allow me more cattle on my land with the potential for larger weight gains, especially when using a high growth terminal sire on them. Given dun's comments I may need to rethink this plan. I might be able to upgrade pastures & fertilize a lot, but when we have a drought again I could get hurt the worst with few breeding back. Longevity seems like it would easily make up for a lot of years of a little less weaning weight due to less milk.
Am I thinking correctly???

 

[Frankie]

I've also been considering another Gelbvieh bull for awhile.

http://www.bullbarn.com/gelbepd.asp?ID=44

His BW EPD averages out to below Angus average when converted.

Am I confused or are you confused? The numbers in the across breed EPDs are adjustment factors. You add them to the EPDs of bulls that you're comparing against each other. If I read this link right, this bull has a 3.2 BW EPD. If you add the 4.7 Gelbvieh adjustment factor, you'll get 7.9, not "below Angus average". The average Angus BW EPD is about 2.2, not to be confused with 0.

And what Dun said about milk. Milk is a good thing. You get bigger calves from milky cows. But it's not free. A lactating heifer is still growing. She uses the feed she consumes to first, maintain herself, second, grow, third, nurse a calf, and last of all put on condition to breed back for another calf.

You'll see a lot of people on these boards talking about big cows. But if you're planning to sell bulls, you need to find out what kind of bulls commercial cattlemen in your area are looking for. In my area, they like big bulls. Try to get out to some bull sales this fall and see what sort of bulls are bringing the best money in your area.

Across Breed EPDs:

http://www.ars.usda.gov/sp2UserFiles/Pl ... 06News.pdf

 

[Rookie Rancher]

Frankie - I think you miss read the EPD for the bulls BW. It is negative (-3.2). So -3.2+4.7=1.5BW EPD which is less than the 2.2 average BW for Angus.

I'm not planning on selling Bulls, just making some great cows and selling grass fed steers to local health nuts. Unless I come up with another plan that would make me more $$$ with the same or less effort.

What do you think of my concern on the amount of milk, and the look of the bull?

 

[Frankie]

Frankie - I think you miss read the EPD for the bulls BW. It is negative (-3.2). So -3.2+4.7=1.5BW EPD which is less than the 2.2 average BW for Angus.

I'm not planning on selling Bulls, just making some great cows and selling grass fed steers to local health nuts. Unless I come up with another plan that would make me more $$$ with the same or less effort.

What do you think of my concern on the amount of milk, and the look of the bull?

You're right, I did mis-read it. The dash on the top line is a minus. Thank you.

I think you're right to be concerned about milk. But you'll have to be the judge as to what your forage can support. I don't see anything wrong with the bull from the photo. But it's hard to make judgments from pictures. Has he been widely used in the breed? Could you actually see some calves or talk to someone who has calves by him?

If you breed him to Angus heifers, you should get black calves.

 

[dun]

Longevity seems like it would easily make up for a lot of years of a little less weaning weight due to less milk.
Am I thinking correctly???

I think you are! But that and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee at the local diner.