Flushing or not?

[vclavin]

The only experience we've had with Limousin are that deer can't jump over as high a fence as a Limousin can. Had a neighbor tell us to never cross a Limousin to a Holstein, I'm sure you can guess why due to my first sentence. lol

Well I have to say I have had some bad experiences with Angus along the same lines. There are good and bad cattle in every breed. My cattle are docile and probably more so that many peoples cattle. Most of the people I know in the Angus business have been too busy testing for genetic defects during the past year and they dont have time to worry about fence jumpers. If I had plans to flush an Angus I would probably wait until all the genetic testing gets sorted out. I have heard there are more tests to follow what has already been completed.


Circle H Ranch

Probably related your Angus and my LImi - lol. The bull was very gentle..no problem there.. just had a thing about fence jumping. He was always waiting at the gate when ready to go back to his girls.
As far a genetic tests go.. I have to commend the Angus Association for weeding out the bad genetics. Such huge numbers of Registered cattle to let any defect get a foothold. I have stayed away from the popular lines that have been giving trouble of late. I had, however, bought 2 cows from a lady that had this last defect in the background. I have to get the blood sent in.
My Angus are very docile as well... I can give a shot to a calf, tube it whatever I please and the cow licks my arms. They seem to know if you are friend or foe. I'm sure you must take excellent care of yours in order to have gentle animals.
Valerie

 

[vclavin]

The only experience we've had with Limousin are that deer can't jump over as high a fence as a Limousin can. Had a neighbor tell us to never cross a Limousin to a Holstein, I'm sure you can guess why due to my first sentence. lol

Well I have to say I have had some bad experiences with Angus along the same lines. There are good and bad cattle in every breed. My cattle are docile and probably more so that many peoples cattle. Most of the people I know in the Angus business have been too busy testing for genetic defects during the past year and they dont have time to worry about fence jumpers. If I had plans to flush an Angus I would probably wait until all the genetic testing gets sorted out. I have heard there are more tests to follow what has already been completed.


Circle H Ranch

whowee !! that had some bite to it :cowboy:

Just a misunderstanding, I believe. He thought I was bashing his Limis and that was not what I meant to do..I am sorry for the mistake in meaning.
Valerie

 

[gizmom]

We only flush cows that have proven themselves within our herd to be top producers. We won't flush a heifer, how can you possibly know if she is worth flushing if she has never raised a calf. I should say now we only flush heifers back when we first started we flushed a heifer, that turned out to be an ok cow but should never have been flushed. One of those lessons learned......the only good thing about that kind of lesson is that you don't usually make the same mistake twice.

Gizmom
http://www.gizmoangus.com

 

[Cattleman200]

Just a misunderstanding, I believe. He thought I was bashing his Limis and that was not what I meant to do..I am sorry for the mistake in meaning.
Valerie

What it really made me think when I read what you typed was that you thought I must be stupid for raising or flushing Limousin cattle but I am OK with that. Just as everyone (including myself) quoted you prices on what they paid for a flush instead of giving you qualifications on choosing Donor cows it was like you paid no attention at all when I tried to explain how I made my decisions on choosing Donors for the fact that you were stunned that I was flushing Limousin cattle. It`s all about what you raise and how you market them. I guess I wasted my time trying to give an explaination on anything huh? I just hope this severe cold front does`nt screw things up on these 4 donors and 22 recips we are setting up now.


Circle H Ranch

 

[pdfangus]

In response to inquiry

I have not flushed a cow in ten years now.

The cows we did flush are now dead.

Most of our herd was dispersed to commercial customers including any remaining flush offspring.

 

[Bonsman]

We only flush cows that have proven themselves within our herd to be top producers. We won't flush a heifer, how can you possibly know if she is worth flushing if she has never raised a calf. I should say now we only flush heifers back when we first started we flushed a heifer, that turned out to be an ok cow but should never have been flushed. One of those lessons learned......the only good thing about that kind of lesson is that you don't usually make the same mistake twice.

Gizmom
http://www.gizmoangus.com

I made this same mistake. I flushed two without any information other than their looks. I got lucky on one; she had been at Clemson participating in a research project. The other I missed on her and on the bull. The older I get the less I know.

Mike

 

[vclavin]

Just a misunderstanding, I believe. He thought I was bashing his Limis and that was not what I meant to do..I am sorry for the mistake in meaning.
Valerie

What it really made me think when I read what you typed was that you thought I must be stupid for raising or flushing Limousin cattle but I am OK with that. Just as everyone (including myself) quoted you prices on what they paid for a flush instead of giving you qualifications on choosing Donor cows it was like you paid no attention at all when I tried to explain how I made my decisions on choosing Donors for the fact that you were stunned that I was flushing Limousin cattle. It`s all about what you raise and how you market them. I guess I wasted my time trying to give an explaination on anything huh? I just hope this severe cold front does`nt screw things up on these 4 donors and 22 recips we are setting up now.


Circle H Ranch

Not true. I very much want/need your info as well as others. It takes info from all directions to make really good decisions. I am sincerely sorry for the statements that led you to believe I thought you "crazy". Please accept my apology. As others, we have all had a "bad" experience with one breed or another and that no way means any breed is totally bad just because a few bad apples escaped the ax.
You have not wasted your time...I did read your thoughts and appreciate your input. Thank you so much for trying to help with my decisions. Honestly!
Valerie

 

[sizmic]

It has been my experience that flushing is a gamble. Odds are on mother nature and Mr. Murphy's side. However, when it pays off, it pays off well. Some people flush for genetics, some flush trying to get more animals out of one really good producer, the two don't often meet up in the same animal. When they do it is truly a sight to behold. I have tried to flush my best cow 3 times, crapped out every time. She always breeds back on the first straw after the flush, vet said I'd just have to take them one at a time, and I do. What I consider to be my next best producer avg's 18 1's and 2's every time. She is what I feel combines the genetics, beauty, and performance all in the same animal. The only problem with that is finding enough recips when I decide to retire her to the flush barn. I personally feel they should calve a natural calf between flushes but, to each his own. I wouldn't get carried away on trying to flush to the latest hot bull, I like the tried, and true genetics that would probably compliment the cow being flushed.

Sizmic

 

[Cattleman200]

Thanks Valerie


Circle H Ranch

 

[vclavin]

It has been my experience that flushing is a gamble. Odds are on mother nature and Mr. Murphy's side. However, when it pays off, it pays off well. Some people flush for genetics, some flush trying to get more animals out of one really good producer, the two don't often meet up in the same animal. When they do it is truly a sight to behold. I have tried to flush my best cow 3 times, crapped out every time. She always breeds back on the first straw after the flush, vet said I'd just have to take them one at a time, and I do. What I consider to be my next best producer avg's 18 1's and 2's every time. She is what I feel combines the genetics, beauty, and performance all in the same animal. The only problem with that is finding enough recips when I decide to retire her to the flush barn. I personally feel they should calve a natural calf between flushes but, to each his own. I wouldn't get carried away on trying to flush to the latest hot bull, I like the tried, and true genetics that would probably compliment the cow being flushed.

Sizmic

Thanks, I will keep that in mind. Another good thing about these flushes.. I can flush a registered Angus to a hereford bull and let the xbreeds raise them. I can still flush to reg Angus for those girls to raise.
Hard part is making the decision on who.

Is there an age that should be avoided - besides heifers - meaning "too old"

Valerie

 

[vclavin]

Thanks Valerie


Circle H Ranch

I value your friendship...Your are welcome and thanks for accepting.
Valerie

 

[Cattleman200]

Thanks, I will keep that in mind. Another good thing about these flushes.. I can flush a registered Angus to a hereford bull and let the xbreeds raise them. I can still flush to reg Angus for those girls to raise.
Hard part is making the decision on who.

Is there an age that should be avoided - besides heifers - meaning "too old"

Valerie

From personal experience I would suggest recips between around 3 - 8 years in age although I know several people that use heifers. Once we flushed a red horned fullblood female and did a split flush. We used two units of a red horned fullblood and two units of a homo black homo polled bull. It was like Christmas when the calves were born. You didnt know who was the sire until they came out of the package. If they were red they were fullblood. If they were black/polled they were out of the homo/homo bull. It was interesting and exciting.


Circle H Ranch

 

[alexfarms]

Has anyone had any experiences with IVF where a couple units of short supply semen are used and up to 5 cows are used as donors? TransOva has advertised this program and I am sure it has been used, but it seems most people stick with the older method of giving the drugs, etc. There used to be a poster on here named Lorenzo from South AMerica who claimed IVF was easier on the donors and gave just as good results. Seems like it just hasn't caught on here in the states. Is there a major drawback?

 

[vclavin]

Has anyone had any experiences with IVF where a couple units of short supply semen are used and up to 5 cows are used as donors? TransOva has advertised this program and I am sure it has been used, but it seems most people stick with the older method of giving the drugs, etc. There used to be a poster on here named Lorenzo from South AMerica who claimed IVF was easier on the donors and gave just as good results. Seems like it just hasn't caught on here in the states. Is there a major drawback?

I'll have to search that thread. I have no idea what IVF is? Must have been sleeping that day.
Valerie

 

[dun]

Has anyone had any experiences with IVF where a couple units of short supply semen are used and up to 5 cows are used as donors? TransOva has advertised this program and I am sure it has been used, but it seems most people stick with the older method of giving the drugs, etc. There used to be a poster on here named Lorenzo from South AMerica who claimed IVF was easier on the donors and gave just as good results. Seems like it just hasn't caught on here in the states. Is there a major drawback?

I'll have to search that thread. I have no idea what IVF is? Must have been sleeping that day.
Valerie

In Vitro Fertilization. It's basically doing it in a dish instead of in a cow

 

[whitecow]

IVF works very well for most donors. And, yes, a single straw of semen (sexed or unsexed) can be used to fertilize oocytes from multiple donors (collected on the same day). Oocyte collections, called aspirations, can be performed every two weeks for several months at a time. Even works for short bred females as long as the technician can still manipulate the ovaries (up to ~120 days preg). It also works on pre-pubetal heifers starting at about 6 months. The only issue is the cost. For a single donor, it is usually quite a bit more expensive than flushing. But if you have several donors that you want to breed with the same expensive straw of semen, IVF is a great alternative to flushing.

 

[vclavin]

IVF works very well for most donors. And, yes, a single straw of semen (sexed or unsexed) can be used to fertilize oocytes from multiple donors (collected on the same day). Oocyte collections, called aspirations, can be performed every two weeks for several months at a time. Even works for short bred females as long as the technician can still manipulate the ovaries (up to ~120 days preg). It also works on pre-pubetal heifers starting at about 6 months. The only issue is the cost. For a single donor, it is usually quite a bit more expensive than flushing. But if you have several donors that you want to breed with the same expensive straw of semen, IVF is a great alternative to flushing.

That's neat. thanks
Valerie

 

[Idaman]

Has anyone had any experiences with IVF where a couple units of short supply semen are used and up to 5 cows are used as donors? TransOva has advertised this program and I am sure it has been used, but it seems most people stick with the older method of giving the drugs, etc. There used to be a poster on here named Lorenzo from South AMerica who claimed IVF was easier on the donors and gave just as good results. Seems like it just hasn't caught on here in the states. Is there a major drawback?

Cost.

We have also looked into removing the ovaries from a recently died cow or maybe crippled but alive and removing the ovaries and then IVF on the harvested
oocytes. Trans Ova said that only their Souix Center facility coud do this and we would have to have the oocytes in their hands in under 8 hours after harvesting the ovaries. Then since you can't freeze IVF embryos we would have to pick them up after fertilization and then fly them to waiting recipients. We still may try it but the cost is going to be high.

 

[sizmic]

I was talking to a pretty good cow vet here and I'm pretty sure he said you can freeze IVF embryo's after the 7 day incubation period in the test tube, so to speak. The volume with IVF increases dramatically as compared to normal flushing, however, more of those just don't make it through the incubation period. But it would be considerably better getting the sex you want. I believe this to be accurate but maybe someone else could correct me if I am wrong.

Sizmic

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Donor age - strickly depends on the individual. We have one that was 9 years old - flushed 5 times then bred & calved natural - and immediately went back into flush program. She just gave 24 good embryos and will be flushed 1 more time before getting bred for natural calf. She only averaged 6 on the first 3 flushes - probably due to our unusual hot/dry summer (for NY). But, she averaged 19 the first year.
So, age may not matter.
I do not believe in flushing virgin heifers. She may look good, have great EPD's & DNA, but may NEVER reproduce herself.
What cow you flush, depends on your goals. My goal is to make money selling embryos, so the cow must be nationally acceptable. (performance - pedigree)
Picture is "too big", and I don't have time to mess with it - if you want to see "the old lady", go to:
http://www.simmevalley.com/SaleCattle.htm scroll down under the "show string", it is B&B Miss Power Lass.