Flushing or not?

[vclavin]

What is your criteria for flushing a cow? We've been considering it, but would like to hear your thoughts on this. The cost is considerable around $2000.oo, so would like to make the "correct" decision.
Or at least a very informed one - lol.
Valerie

 

[jkwilson]

Last flush we did was about $475 + $75 per cow implanting at that time plus $600 worth of semen we already had.

The cow needs to be special, and no point using a run of the mill bull.

IMO, if the cow is good enough to flush you won't even be thinking about what it costs to do it.

 

[Idaman]

So far our flushing costs have been just over $100 per frozen embryo. Implanting is another $50 per embryo.

 

[vclavin]

Who flushed them for you? Do you implant the embryos into reg or xbred recip cows?
Valerie

 

[Cattleman200]

My Embryolygist charges $300 per flush or $250 if you flush more than one at a time. Plus $50 each to freeze eggs for the first 10 eggs per flush then free freezing after that. If you put in fresh eggs its $50 per transfer. We just started setting up 4 Donors and I put CIDR`s in 22 recips. We are now expecting severe cold weather as luck would have it which could affect both donors and recips. However the max I pay per flush is $800. I usually do all the set up work here though which would make it cheaper than storage charges if you leave them with whoever is flushing.


Circle h Ranch

 

[Santas and Duhram Reds]

I would implant them in some xbreds that I knew had the pelvic size to handle an elephant to make sure there were no probs.

 

[vclavin]

My Embryolygist charges $300 per flush or $250 if you flush more than one at a time. Plus $50 each to freeze eggs for the first 10 eggs per flush then free freezing after that. If you put in fresh eggs its $50 per transfer. We just started setting up 4 Donors and I put CIDR`s in 22 recips. We are now expecting severe cold weather as luck would have it which could affect both donors and recips. However the max I pay per flush is $800. I usually do all the set up work here though which would make it cheaper than storage charges if you leave them with whoever is flushing.


Circle h Ranch

What is it about these particular cows, that you decided to flush them.
Valerie

 

[pdfangus]

well you asked about criteria and everyone gave you prices.

that is a sign of the logic in flushing.

in my opinion......and we all know about opinons......

a cow needs to be truly special to be flushed.
special means demonstrated superiority.......

I have bought embryos form a big name breeder only to have one of my AI calves be the top heifer in the crop.

I have flushed our two top proven cows both Angus Pathfinders and had regular AI calves again exceed them.

I decided to spend my mondy on breeding as many cows AI as i could and using the best bulls I could afford.

If that top cow is fifty percent better than the next cow then she needs to be flushed.
If she is five percent better than the next cow your return on investment is minimal. and the investment is hefty no matter how much of the stuff you do yourself or have anyway.

depends on the marketing program. do you have people willing to pay top dollar for progeny from this particular cow? If so then flush.

if you are just trying to achieve genetic advancement I would breed as many cows AI as possible to the best bull I could afford.

 

[pdfangus]

One other point I forgot.

a cow that is special in someone elses environment is not necessarily going to be special in your environment.

 

[Bonsman]

That is expensive. I use a place in Stillwater, OK. I cannot remember the price, but it was easily less than $1,000.00 and I received about ten embryos.

 

[Cattleman200]

Report this postReply with quoteRe: Flushing or not?
by vclavin on Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:48 am

Cattleman200 wrote:
My Embryolygist charges $300 per flush or $250 if you flush more than one at a time. Plus $50 each to freeze eggs for the first 10 eggs per flush then free freezing after that. If you put in fresh eggs its $50 per transfer. We just started setting up 4 Donors and I put CIDR`s in 22 recips. We are now expecting severe cold weather as luck would have it which could affect both donors and recips. However the max I pay per flush is $800. I usually do all the set up work here though which would make it cheaper than storage charges if you leave them with whoever is flushing.


Circle h Ranch

What is it about these particular cows, that you decided to flush them.
Valerie

Valerie, Three of these females have raised top calves in my herd. Two of these donors calves have consistently brought some of the best prices when it was time to market offspring. One of them is closely within a National Champion bulls pedigree and she is 17 years old but still in great condition and I would like to have more progeny and embryos before she makes a trip to town. Another one has always produced outstanding calves no matter which bull she was mated to and has offspring working in 9 different states right now. I paid $3000 for her in a mature cow dispersal and in the last 6 years or so she has generated us $22,500 income. The other one of mine has only had one calf but it was very good and she has a great pedigree and also looks the part. I have a partner on her and we both want embryos and calves out of her. All three of these females are homo black and homo polled and in the Limousin breed to many breeders this is a plus. I also have clients who have and are willing to purchase embryos or calves out of these three females. The fourth donor belongs to a client of mine in Tennessee and he wanted to flush her. She fits about the same criteria as I mentioned on my cows and he wants to produce several calves from her if he can. In my operation I have to go with what I can market and what other breeders are looking to buy. On the three donors I have I forgot to mention that they all have fairly strong EPD`s all the way across as well which when mated to a particular bull also makes the offspring easier to market. If you raise animals that have eye appeal and with solid EPD`s pretty much from BW to $B it would be hard for anyone to fault them. I think every seedstock breeder should at least be striving to produce at least a few calves like this. Just my opinion but I market about 95% of my animals off the farm so I must be doing something right.


Circle H Ranch

 

[vclavin]

One other point I forgot.

a cow that is special in someone elses environment is not necessarily going to be special in your environment.

Thanks, I have done DNA on the one I have in mind and thought about 2 others. I feel DNA for genetic potential. THen see if EPD's tell the same story, last... if phenotype agrees with the other 2.
Thoughts?
Valerie

 

[vclavin]

Circle H - you are flushing Limosine females?

pdf angus - you are flushing Reg Angus? Mind pm or posting their reg numbers so I can get a feel for what EPD's/bloodlines you are using?

Possible flushes from:
#002 Pridemere Moon 13646771
#907 Pridemere Moon 16425576
#701 Miss Viking 15816019
#905 Blackbird 16425574

Just from EPD's and bloodlines...which do you prefer? (I realise the 2 are heifers)

So many to choose from and all really good calves. Just need to get the DNA from all . Some are hard to choose the sire for as some of the AI sires drop the EPD's instead of improve them.

Valerie

 

[Cattleman200]

Report this postReply with quoteRe: Flushing or not?
by vclavin on Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:41 pm

Circle H - you are flushing Limosine females?


Yes , We have Limousin , Angus and LimFlex (Limousin x Angus cross).


Circle H Ranch

 

[vclavin]

Report this postReply with quoteRe: Flushing or not?
by vclavin on Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:41 pm

Circle H - you are flushing Limosine females?


Yes , We have Limousin , Angus and LimFlex (Limousin x Angus cross).


Circle H Ranch

The only experience we've had with Limousin are that deer can't jump over as high a fence as a Limousin can. :lol: Had a neighbor tell us to never cross a Limousin to a Holstein, I'm sure you can guess why due to my first sentence. lol

 

[Cattleman200]

The only experience we've had with Limousin are that deer can't jump over as high a fence as a Limousin can. Had a neighbor tell us to never cross a Limousin to a Holstein, I'm sure you can guess why due to my first sentence. lol

Well I have to say I have had some bad experiences with Angus along the same lines. There are good and bad cattle in every breed. My cattle are docile and probably more so that many peoples cattle. Most of the people I know in the Angus business have been too busy testing for genetic defects during the past year and they dont have time to worry about fence jumpers. If I had plans to flush an Angus I would probably wait until all the genetic testing gets sorted out. I have heard there are more tests to follow what has already been completed.


Circle H Ranch

 

[ALACOWMAN]

The only experience we've had with Limousin are that deer can't jump over as high a fence as a Limousin can. Had a neighbor tell us to never cross a Limousin to a Holstein, I'm sure you can guess why due to my first sentence. lol

Well I have to say I have had some bad experiences with Angus along the same lines. There are good and bad cattle in every breed. My cattle are docile and probably more so that many peoples cattle. Most of the people I know in the Angus business have been too busy testing for genetic defects during the past year and they dont have time to worry about fence jumpers. If I had plans to flush an Angus I would probably wait until all the genetic testing gets sorted out. I have heard there are more tests to follow what has already been completed.


Circle H Ranch

whowee !! that had some bite to it :cowboy:

 

[TexasBred]

Mercy...I must be seeing the wrong Limis...all I've ever been around were gentle as any other breed of cattle. Even the bulls. Got a friend that raises them in San Antonio. She does all the raising, breeding, selling etc. The old man is HER gate opener. :nod:

 

[showing71]

We've been doing some flushing lately. I'm not sure about the cost, I don't deal with that end.

Our cow criteria is this: they have to have had at least 4 top of the line calves in our herd. The 2 cows we have flushed/are flushing this year didn't come out of our herd, but have been in the herd long enough for us to know what they can produce. In these 2 cows especially, we looked at the association's records to see if these cows have been previously flushed. Both had so we figured that was a pretty good indicator of what they can do. We take pretty meticulous records of our herd, so we have good indicators of who are the better cows and who aren't. With cows that we produced, we have a good idea of where they come from. We will not flush a cow who's mom had to leave the farm because of any problem besides old age. We also look at the cow's sire to make sure he is/was up to par. We then take a look back at her calves, what were they sold for as bulls? how many steers has she had? what/how are her daughters doing, and if they still are or aren't in the herd for any reason other than being sold? etc. After all that is looked at, we then take a look at her EPDs and make sure her's are where we want to be (we don't chase numbers, but for some of our customers that sometimes is important). We also take note of how the cow herself is looking, is she at the adequate body condition for her age? does she still overall look 'good'? We also look at the sires her calves were out of, and then from there decide what direction we want to go with the flushing.

Our recip cows have to go under scrutiny too. They have to have raised a good calf, with no problems. We want to make sure that with the time, money, and effort going into the whole ordeal, the recips will perform well also. We don't have a preference as to whether they're purebred or xbred. But the purebreds that get an embryo are usually the ones that are inconsistent with their calves (ie: have had more steers than bulls), so we're not out much money for her raising an ET calf over a AI calf.

 

[vclavin]

We've been doing some flushing lately. I'm not sure about the cost, I don't deal with that end.

Our cow criteria is this: they have to have had at least 4 top of the line calves in our herd. The 2 cows we have flushed/are flushing this year didn't come out of our herd, but have been in the herd long enough for us to know what they can produce. In these 2 cows especially, we looked at the association's records to see if these cows have been previously flushed. Both had so we figured that was a pretty good indicator of what they can do. We take pretty meticulous records of our herd, so we have good indicators of who are the better cows and who aren't. With cows that we produced, we have a good idea of where they come from. We will not flush a cow who's mom had to leave the farm because of any problem besides old age. We also look at the cow's sire to make sure he is/was up to par. We then take a look back at her calves, what were they sold for as bulls? how many steers has she had? what/how are her daughters doing, and if they still are or aren't in the herd for any reason other than being sold? etc. After all that is looked at, we then take a look at her EPDs and make sure her's are where we want to be (we don't chase numbers, but for some of our customers that sometimes is important). We also take note of how the cow herself is looking, is she at the adequate body condition for her age? does she still overall look 'good'? We also look at the sires her calves were out of, and then from there decide what direction we want to go with the flushing.

Our recip cows have to go under scrutiny too. They have to have raised a good calf, with no problems. We want to make sure that with the time, money, and effort going into the whole ordeal, the recips will perform well also. We don't have a preference as to whether they're purebred or xbred. But the purebreds that get an embryo are usually the ones that are inconsistent with their calves (ie: have had more steers than bulls), so we're not out much money for her raising an ET calf over a AI calf.

Awesome, thank you for the info. I will study the girls better.
Valerie