European beef

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The most these type of cattle have to walk is on level ground on a tame pasture. Most of the time they are housed. The BB I saw here panting while lying down like a winded dog when it was 90 degrees out. The idea of these cows rustling or bulls covering cows on rough ground falls under the heading of notgunnahappen.com.
Anther big problem these double muscled cattle do not breed well. Delayed sexual maturity and poor fertility are the order of the day.
The demand for the lean beef from such animals stems at least in part from different cooking methods used and the feeling that buying fat is like buying waste. Also keep in mind that fatty beef is problem for people on fat restricted diets this would make for a natural market for such animals. The beef is also very tender due to the muscle fibers being larger for the same amount of connective tissue. The production problems for use in extensive systems are very large however. Right now the typical American herd could get plenty of improvement by using normal continental reeds with out double muscling.
 
houstoncutter":wtfw2s0a said:
I had to wipe the screen off cause I was drooling over the Limousin bull. Thats what Limi bulls used to look like.
they still do look like that overseas, its just now some guys are breeding the feedlot kind, all frame no ass. with zero copies of f94l, or for the show ring trying to make them look like Angus.
 
VLS_GUY":8okubar6 said:
Two extreme points of view in one post. One guy only thinks about eating quality in a American context not production efficiency. The other is all about maximum production in a very intensive environment.
In my mind both miss the point. Endless studies show that the fattest animal is not necessarily the best eating. Also either we pay attention to cost of production beef will lose market share to other protein sources. Since the average YG on a U. S. steer is a little over 3 there is room for improvement here without impacting eating quality. Don't believe me? Look at the price premiums that Laura's Lean gets in the supermarket even over CAB. If the product was providing a horrible eating experience the price premium wouldn't exist.
That said the use of double muscled bulls in a beef herd of any size brings huge problems beyond calving issues. These cattle are slow growing, aren't fertile, and can't handle stress well. Only about one in five bulls pans out. Think about that purebred breeders at your next bull sale. These cattle need AI to produce an acceptable calf so they can weed the good bulls from the bad. Leachman tried to started a Piedmontese branded beef program and this was at least partly responsible for their going broke. These cattle work great on getting beef/veal calves out of dairy cows not much else.
In Northern Europe North American Charolais and Simmental bulls have won progeny tests against bulls like those in the video based on their ability to calve and grow better. Tell a French or Belgian breeder that some of these North American bulls are solid red or black and they come unglued.
The cattle had little to do with the failure of "Ameripied". I am not here to bash anyone and won't play that game. However, do hate to see this breed still suffering from an handful of individual's greed over ten years ago. Piedmontese have a lot to offer the beef industry, hopefully with continued perseverance it will be recognized.
 
VLS_GUY":3vfqqfvw said:
The most these type of cattle have to walk is on level ground on a tame pasture. Most of the time they are housed. The BB I saw here panting while lying down like a winded dog when it was 90 degrees out. The idea of these cows rustling or bulls covering cows on rough ground falls under the heading of notgunnahappen.com.
Anther big problem these double muscled cattle do not breed well. Delayed sexual maturity and poor fertility are the order of the day.
The demand for the lean beef from such animals stems at least in part from different cooking methods used and the feeling that buying fat is like buying waste. Also keep in mind that fatty beef is problem for people on fat restricted diets this would make for a natural market for such animals. The beef is also very tender due to the muscle fibers being larger for the same amount of connective tissue. The production problems for use in extensive systems are very large however. Right now the typical American herd could get plenty of improvement by using normal continental reeds with out double muscling.

Not all double muscle genes are the same! There is no correlation with poor growth delayed sexual maturity and calving difficulty that you claim with the F94L gene which is located with the limousin population, The Belgian blue gene GDF8 does contribute to calving difficulty and fertility issues. the GDF8 gene is found in some charolais populations,.This study investigated the effects of a SNP in the myostatin gene (MSTN or growth differentiation factor 8, GDF8) on birth, growth, carcass, and beef quality traits in Australia (Aust.) and New Zealand (NZ). The SNP is a cytosine to adenine transversion in exon 1, causing an amino acid substitution of leucine for phenylalanine(94) (F94L). The experiment used crosses between the Jersey and Limousin breeds, with the design being a backcross using first-cross bulls of Jersey x Limousin or Limousin x Jersey breeding, mated to Jersey and Limousin cows. Progeny were genotyped for the myostatin SNP and phenotyped in Aust., with finishing on feedlot (366 calves, over 3 birth years) and in NZ with finishing on pasture (416 calves, over 2 birth years). The effect of the F94L allele (A allele) on birth and growth traits was not significant. The F94L allele in Limousin backcross calves was associated with an increase in meat weight (7.3 and 5.9% of the trait mean in Aust. and NZ, respectively, P < 0.001), and a reduction in fat depth (-13.9 and -18.7% of the trait means on live calves (600 d) and carcasses, respectively, Aust. only, P < 0.001), intramuscular fat content (-8.2% of the trait mean in Aust., P < 0.05; -7.1% in NZ, not significant), total carcass fat weight (-16.5 and -8.1% of the trait mean, Aust. and NZ; P < 0.001 and P < 0.05, respectively). Meat tenderness, pH, and cooking loss of the M. longissimus dorsi were not affected by the F94L variant. In the Jersey backcross calves, additive and dominance effects were confounded because the F94L allele was not segregating in the Jersey dams. The combined effects, however, were significant on LM area (4.4% in both Aust., P < 0.05, and NZ, P < 0.01), channel fat (-11.7%, NZ only, P < 0.01), rib fat depth (-11.2%, NZ only, P < 0.05), and carcass fat weight (-7.1%, NZ only, P < 0.05). The results provide strong evidence that this myostatin F94L variant provides an intermediate and more useful phenotype than the more severe double-muscling phenotype caused by knockout mutations in the myostatin gene.cattle with the f94l are more tender here is a link http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 4008002313
 
Had several double musculled bulls (BB, M-A, pied)in the past, and yes they where lazy and had poor fertillity.They could handle no more than 12 -15 cows and only when its not to hot and when its not raining. Only the cows that didn't have double musculled parent ,calved the normal way.
I have to pay 265 Euro for a ceasar-cut :roll: , and I found I can make more money to use other sires than the double musculled ones. Evenso I liked the char and the limo very much.

Gr. DC
 
PK1,

I have no doubt that the carcass results you gave in the Australian study are correct. The study is limited because it only addresses improvements in carcass quality on a small non beef population of cows (on the Jersey the least productive beef breed in dairy use) and does not even compare carcass traits of the limo calves to other double muscled breeds or the combining effects of using different breeds of dam (Angus, Charolais, Holstein etc.) This study also does not talk about growth, fertility or any other things important in a beef herd.
It would be interesting for MARC or another research institution do a larger scale more comprehensive study on all relevant traits for using such bulls in a large scale beef operation. If you could find the funding for such a study it would be the first step to market acceptance outside Europe for the pied and similar breeds.
 
That MARC data is good for a start but we need to:
1. Test several different double muscled breeds or strains together to see any differences between them in a North American environment. Much of the MARC data is at least 20 years old.
2. Do research into how these breeds can be successfully used in a commercial beef herd in North America. The management issues are bigger than you think.
3. Collect performance data (EPDs?) and progeny test the bulls to find out which ones work in the real world. I don't see any data on how the individual bulls work on cows in commercial conditions versus other bulls. This very important. Most of the Pied bulls I see have the same breeding as they did 25 years ago. Why no progression?
 
Maybe the Pied folks are smart, and they do not wish to screw up a breed.... as has been done to many breeds that have come to America...
 
VLS_GUY":2u7tpcyl said:
That MARC data is good for a start but we need to:
1. Test several different double muscled breeds or strains together to see any differences between them in a North American environment. Much of the MARC data is at least 20 years old.
2. Do research into how these breeds can be successfully used in a commercial beef herd in North America. The management issues are bigger than you think.
3. Collect performance data (EPDs?) and progeny test the bulls to find out which ones work in the real world. I don't see any data on how the individual bulls work on cows in commercial conditions versus other bulls. This very important. Most of the Pied bulls I see have the same breeding as they did 25 years ago. Why no progression?
I have to disagree with you here. I think there has been progression. However there is also great care in preserving the breed being taken as well. Also think that there is merit in using some of the older bulls in situations to improve a line. Sirio Fogot is one of those bulls, wish I had a tank full of him.
 
We have been raising BB cross since 1996, and they are NOT monsters
And they are DELICIOUS.
:)
tender and lean, can cut it with a fork.
You don't need any A1, just a little salt and pepper.
Belgian Blue is a great breed. Granted full bloods aren't practical for an average cattle raiser with the pureblood calving issues, HOWEVER over in Canada the breed isn't as extreme as it is in Europe.
Please see this PDF http://www.belgianblue.ca/_mndata/belgianblue/uploaded_files/Sam Dunlop 025-024-CCT111212.pdf
I think it's great that some breeders have managed to tone down the breed enough to help the calving issues while maintaining the rest of the breeds qualities.
My prediction: as the modified Canadian branch grows and ranchers get forced to have more efficient cattle with this last drought and needing faster growing steers/steers that will gain more pounds of body weight for the amount of feed fed, that the BB from Canada will expand on popularity.
 

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